Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

[ArmChairCivvy]

I agree with that It wasn’t until the 70’s that 155mm became the standard, but that covers only half a century.

A century back direct-fire, smaller calibres were predominant. Then came the tanks and indirect fire tasking becoming 'the job' and favoured larger calibres. And then (when armies of millions conscripted and trained quickly weren't the main rule anymore) 155 as the one that can do all jobs became the norm... not so in Russia where the 122/ 130 remained big as they were more practical outside divisional/ corps artillery taskings.

[ArmChairCivvy]

https://www.themilitarytimes.co.uk/hm-f ... ury-plain/
abt rocketry in divisional taskings

[ArmChairCivvy]

The last 2 paragraphs make for gloomy reading:


https://www.janes.com/article/94844/mbd ... initiative

They do, as the answer has been "air" all along.
- time to think gain

just noticed that what Ron had linked to on the previous page was part of the narrative that I had linked to on the future form of the army thread
- so what for now is mainly for divisional fires
- will in the future close the gap all the way to... close support

[Lord Jim]

I also agree. TO support the Mechanised Brigades I would suggest the purchase of a Regiments worth of HIMARS based on the MAN 6x6 or 8x8 Chassis already in service with the British Army. This gives us a mobile, rapidly deployable platform that can leverage developments in the US regarding such as the GLSDB and the follow on to ATACMS. It also gives the Mechanised Brigades an artillery system that can compete with likely peers.

Could Watchkeeper be partially allocated to this formation to provide integral interim ISTAR/Targeting support, or to the Brigade HQ.

All this does show how yet again, the under investment in the Army's conventional warfighting capabilities across the board are coming hoe to roost in a big way. We are almost going to have to re organised and totally re equip at least the whole of 3rd (UK) Division and 16 Air Assault over the next fifteen years and that is going to take a substantial amount of new money unless the RAF and RN can be persuaded to drop some of their procurement programmes (Fat Chance). If we don't then committing any units from this Division to any peer conflict that may occur over the next decade and a half would be verging on committing murder, against Ministers and the MoD Top Brass, due ot the high casualties that would likely be incurred.

The ongoing review is going to have to put up or shut up regarding the idea of the UK being a global force and having a top tier military. It need not just new equipment but the mass to sustain it, the level of training to use it effectively, and a long term investment strategy to prevent this happening again, other wise we might as well reintroduce the Nuclear Trip Wire against any aggression against the UK and the BOTs, pull our forces back to basically garrisoning these, and move off the world stage and allow someone else to take up the baton we aspire to hold.

(Oops soryy got into a bit of a rant mode there, isolation is a bitch )

[ArmChairCivvy]

Could Watchkeeper be partially allocated (...) to the Brigade HQ.

That was the rationale for them (and also the largish quantity): available to support ISR and targeting across the sphere of a brigades area of responsibility - which latter could be a larger area than where it is concentrating its operations at any given moment
... needing a runway makes them a specialised support unit though; interesting to see where this type of FIND function will find itself after 1 Aviation Bde will have been stood up
- the 'proper' fixed wing (manned) aviation briefly visited the JHF with them, but soon continued to 'under the wing of' the RAF

[madhon]

The trends summarised above omit the fact that USMC relies on 120 mm mortars to do the job we have the LG for... which sort of relates to the leading sentence in the next quote:

Except that the USMC got rid of those mortars back in 2018 so that they could fund other modernisation projects.

[Lord Jim]

They wanted to use them together with mini jeeps, one to tow one and for the ammunition, that could be carried internally within a MV-22. The mortars worked fine but the vehicles and the doctrine had problems. It was not easy to quickly load them onto a MV-22 which was supposed to be key to their rapid redeployment for one thing, so when saving were needed they were seen as an easy choice.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The trends summarised above omit the fact that USMC relies on 120 mm mortars to do the job we have the LG for... which sort of relates to the leading sentence in the next quote:

Except that the USMC got rid of those mortars back in 2018 so that they could fund other modernisation projects.

Could we have a link to what "those" mortars were that they got rid of, pls
- all mortars, all 120 mm mortars, the new (competed) mortars...?

[Lord Jim]

The ones they got rid of were the Brandt 120mm Rifles Mortars as used by the French Army, I think the LAV-M is still in use has a 81mm Mortar.

[madhon]

The trends summarised above omit the fact that USMC relies on 120 mm mortars to do the job we have the LG for... which sort of relates to the leading sentence in the next quote:

Except that the USMC got rid of those mortars back in 2018 so that they could fund other modernisation projects.

Could we have a link to what "those" mortars were that they got rid of, pls
- all mortars, all 120 mm mortars, the new (competed) mortars...?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... ar-systems

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/y ... eplace-it/

[ArmChairCivvy]

Thanks! Take a basic system, add a lot (two trucks) to it and you hit a mln+ $ in purchasing cost. But that seems like nothing compared to the cost of operating one fire unit (which is nothing as these are area effect weapons, save for precision rounds):
"defeats the stated purpose of the system, which is supposed to provide longer-range fire support than 60mm and 81mm infantry mortars, but in a more mobile and flexible package than the Marine Corps’ larger 155mm M777 howitzers or truck-mounted High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS). On top of that, it takes multiple Ospreys to carry the entire EFSS, as well as additional trips to keep up a ready supply of ammunition. The M1164 trailer carries just 30 additional 120mm rounds."
- looks like an underslung LG is not such a bad deal after all

[ArmChairCivvy]

My favourite (hardly a total mobility solution, but once you are on the ground, it will be possible to move between firing positions without a multitude of vehicles): https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... f=1&nofb=1

[Lord Jim]

And that could just as easily tow the wonderful Brandt rifles 120mm Mortar you know I like, is relatively cheap and could actually be issued to the Infantry Battalions and the Airborne gunners could get the M777A2 with the larger Supercat or Coyote as a tractor. Simply more bang for your buck and should be dealt with separately from the programme to provide a new precision fires capability for units of 3rd (UK) Division.

[whitelancer]

Pity we got rid of them.

[ArmChairCivvy]

And that could just as easily tow the wonderful Brandt rifles 120mm Mortar you know I like, is relatively cheap and could actually be issued to the Infantry Battalions and the Airborne gunners could get the M777A2 with the larger Supercat or Coyote as a tractor. Simply more bang for your buck and should be dealt with separately from the programme to provide a new precision fires capability for units of 3rd (UK) Division.

There was a good Meerkat hint in the latter (Marinetimes) link that the whole lot, incl. a whole lot of mortar bombs, is for sale to a friendly power... I'm sure we wouldn't be forced to take the unreliable light trucks

[Lord Jim]

But the Mortars and bombs would be nice, sort of quid pro quo for the price we sold the Harriers and spares to them in 2010. Say enough for three to four Batteries for a £10 each and the bombs for a £1 each.

[ArmChairCivvy]

We would need more batteries to get through all the bombs during their shelf life
... perhaps we should look at this new way of delivering the Javelin multi-purpose warhead; a kind of semi-loitering munition to do it "Hero has a flight time of one hour and a 40-km range, making it an attractive option to replace the cumbersome 120mm mortar system."
https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/peHu5 ... 5AZ4FM.jpg
- looks like for the link to be usable it will need to be pasted into a browser (sorry for that, something went wrong)

[seaspear]

Active protective systems are being widely introduced to various tanks and armored troop carrying vehicles in a move away from passive armour is there any move in this to the various vehicles using artillery that would be exposed to counter battery fire ?

[Caribbean]

One of those odd things that occurs to me - can an APS discriminate between direct fire and indirect fire that may spray it with (possibly penetratiing) fragments?

[Ron5]

APS is going to do jack shit against artillery fire.

[Lord Jim]

Should the UK also be looking into something like a mobile version of the Israeli Iron Dome to protect high value assets like field headquarters, to be operated by the Royal Artillery as part of a layered Air Defence net?

[Ron5]

Should the UK also be looking into something like a mobile version of the Israeli Iron Dome to protect high value assets like field headquarters, to be operated by the Royal Artillery as part of a layered Air Defence net?

Sky Sabre?

[ArmChairCivvy]

the rationale for them (and also the largish quantity): available to support ISR and targeting across the sphere of a brigades area of responsibility - which latter could be a larger area than where it is concentrating its operations at any given moment
... needing a runway makes them a specialised support unit though; interesting to see where this type of FIND function will find itself after 1 Aviation Bde will have been stood up

That was about Watchkeeper, upthread, but now
https://the-drive.imgix.net/https%3A%2F ... 2d1df76c94 with EW pods starting to come in for army use as well (piccie from the US Army, Silent Crow) and being the size they are, perhaps an army asset that needs a runway isn't such an anomaly any more.
- so the "FIND" in the quote grows into attack as well (I take it there are no plans for any kinetic payloads on Watchkeeper)

[Lord Jim]

Here might be an interim solution, buy a 52cal Artillery system and them possibly purchase some of these;

[ArmChairCivvy]

Nammo (Nammo, short for Norwegian/Finnish 'ammo' company) lived up to its Nordic credentials by using a Maersk container for target
- looks like you have to think harder when you don't have megabucks to spend; I would bet this is mainly a private venture (perhaps some research grants from parent gvmnts, or from Nordefco?)