UK Defence Forum

Could you provide a summary of the reasons the Tiger is rated higher than the Apache for ship board operations?

Lord Jim wrote:Could you provide a summary of the reasons the Tiger is rated higher than the Apache for ship board operations?

Because it was onboard a ship in a James Bond film?

Read the " French experience with the Apache" page 13 to 14 of the magazine I added

Quite an interesting read, but raised an eye brow by saying the French operated in conjunction with British AH-64Es in Libya! AS for the different operational doctrines, the way the UK flew its WAH-64D Apaches was the same as they had operated them in Afghanistan, but that doesn't corelate to the low availability rates the article mentions. As for the better gun on the Tiger, that is well known, but the gun itself is a larger and heavier mount compared to the Chain Gun on the Apache, so there are pros and cons there.

However the version flown in Libya by the French was the Tiger HAP which was limited to unguided rockets, Mistral AAMs and Gun pods, meaning their only true precision weapon was the chin mounted 30mm ad this required the pilots to get relatively up close and personnel, flying at a lower altitude to be effective. The British has in addition to the 30mm Chain Gun, CVR-7 Rockets and most importantly Hellfire ATGWs, allowing them to carry out precision attacks for further away and at greater altitude. The French reliance on the cannon explains the far greater number of rounds fired during their deployment and the higher number of targets destroyed by cannon fire.

There could have been many reasons for a mission being scrubbed during operations over Libya by the Apaches, and reliability would have been only one, though by no means the most common.

Al in all I think this part of the article has quite a few holes in it and seems to be driven by a desire to show the Tiger in a good light whilst showing the Apache in a bad one. Whether this is the down to the author's opinion or the source material he (or she) used. The rest of the article is pretty good and it will be interesting to see which route the ADF takes as all three options will give them a very good platform moving forward.

By the way can someone remind me of the timetable for the UK's AH-64E rebuild programme and when we will receive the first ones back?

Lord Jim wrote: The British has in addition to the 30mm Chain Gun, CVR-7 Rockets and most importantly Hellfire ATGWs, allowing them to carry out precision attacks for further away and at greater altitude.

Stand-off range is everything (for survivability) - as we know from the cavalry style attack (though carried out with apaches ) from Iraq.
- I wonder how the ranges of Hellfire and Igla compare? OK, the latter may not be "the latest" but they are 'everywhere' especially after Gaddafi's arsenals were looted

Worth noting that as far as I'm aware, the Tiger's gun maxes out at about 450 rounds. The Apache's has 1,200.

When it comes to persistent and ongoing CAS in an environment like Afghanistan, Tiger is absolutely horrendous. Jugroom Fort had Apache's fully loaded running dry by the end of it. Tigers would have had to return to base long before.

Deviating, but how is the Italian one comparing?
- Turkey was wise to get the whole line shipped over to them, with the order... at least they will get their attack helos, if not stealth fighters

I wonder, too, why Egypt is in the market for western produce. With the Mistral copies they were supposed to be buying 30 or so Russian attack helos (already marinised; indeed awesome machines)

Lord Jim wrote:By the way can someone remind me of the timetable for the UK's AH-64E rebuild programme and when we will receive the first ones back?

Apache Block 3 fleet numbers have been given by the MOD as 10 in 2020, followed by 12 more in 2021, 12 in 2022, 12 in 2023 and the balance in 2024 for the total of 50 aircraft. Until 2024, the operational fleet will be a mix of AH1 and the new ones. The low point is expected in 2021 with 43 aircraft, split almost equally between the two standards.

Components have already been ordered for all 50, but the production contract for the last 12 will be formally signed next year since it is being taken forwards within the next american Multi Year Procurement contract. The british remanufacture programme sits astride the ending MYP and the following one.

Well, 12 km stand-off will not do, anymore. Hence, the DID of today tells us, US Army To Buy SPIKE NLOS For Apaches
DID news@defenseindustrydaily.com

With NLOS it will be 25 km; is that an understatement as the ground launched ones do the same?
- and how does Brimstone compare?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Well, 12 km stand-off will not do, anymore. Hence, the DID of today tells us, US Army To Buy SPIKE NLOS For Apaches
DID news@defenseindustrydaily.com

With NLOS it will be 25 km; is that an understatement as the ground launched ones do the same?
- and how does Brimstone compare?

I've seen various Brimstone ranges mentioned for rotary. From 12km to 40km. No clear indication.

Either way, a good range.

When you start talking of a weapon system with a range greater than 15km you are no longer classing the Apache as a close support platform and more of an interdiction platform. NLOS will give the US Army a weapon with a far greater range than the current Hellfire and its successor that is already in low rate production, but for its role I still think Brimstone with its various guidance methods and good range is the best weapon for the UK's Apache fleet. It can do precision strikes either guided by the helicopter of troops further forward, be the target stationary or moving or can be salvoed again at a good range, beyond most SHORAD systems. The is a add on man in the loop option available for Brimstone and we should look at adopting this giving us the greatest flexibility.

As for NLOS or in our case Extractor Mk2, there is a definite role for it in the British Army, but probably as a ground launched weapon as it is now. It would be the ideal weapon for both as an over watch system and as a precision strike weapon, though we could do with adopting the enhanced AT warhead the Israelis have rather then the more general purpose one we currently have. So we should use Brimstone for aircraft and helicopters and Extractor Mk2 for ground platforms.

The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled.

Well, US Apaches got that doubled stand-off range, but now it will be with two different missiles... rather than the El Cheapo and the more expensive one of the same

Lord Jim wrote:we could do with adopting the enhanced AT warhead the Israelis have rather then the more general purpose one we currently have

I'd like some flying artillery, and in case some advanced MBTs show up, just screw on a different warhead

It's niteresting that the US did consider the Brimstone, but then decided not to so they could "buy American" with JAGM. Which is fair enough, countries gotta prioritise their own place.

But now they seem to have gone Spike instead, another non-American missile, when they coulda had Brimstone on it some time earlier...feels like a waste.

RetroSicotte wrote:But now they seem to have gone Spike instead

From Israel keeping their buddies in work.

bobp wrote:

RetroSicotte wrote:But now they seem to have gone Spike instead

From Israel keeping their buddies in work.

Who dya think paid for Spike's development?

Excellent family of missiles by the way, Spike LR would be great on UK Boxers & Ajax.

The whole family are probably the best in class in each category, and the Israelis keep developing them, maintaining them at the cutting edge. BAe has just recently fired the Spike LR, from a box launcher attached to the side of a CV90, so how hard would it be to do the same to a Ajax or Warrior or even a Boxer if it actually gets the turret it needs.

As for our future Apache Guardians, Brimstone is a good fit, and using a common missile for the Army and RAF would be good, though adopting the man in the loop add on for the Helicopter version would bring additional capability of great utility. This would also make it a contender for the Army's outstanding overwatch capability requirement.

Finally isn't Brimstone 2 the only one still in production?

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.

It’s in use with the RAF and has been tested on WAH64D.

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.

There was plenty of interest from the Pentagon, it's just that they decided to produce their own version, whether because of cost or they preferred 'made in America' is the only question.

https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/ms-jagm/

https://www.navair.navy.mil/product/joi ... ssile-jagm

UK now has all 50 AH-64E Apaches under contract



The United Kingdom now has under contract all 50 of the Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters it had previously committed to, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to Jane’s on 10 March.

The confirmation came after a contract notification was posted by the US Department of Defense (DoD) for support and training “for the United Kingdom AH-64E Apache helicopter fleet of 50 aircraft”.

Prior to this DoD announcement and the subsequent MoD confirmation, it had only been announced that 38 of the British Army’s WAH-64D Apache Longbow AH1 attack helicopters were under contract for remanufacture to the latest AH-64E standard.

https://www.janes.com/article/94804/uk- ... r-contract

That is a rare bit of good news, as long as it is actually funded and not relying of savings down the road. Now we just need Brimstone, guided CVR-7 rockets and maybe even SPEAR or Spike NLOS integrated and we will be on a roll.

(Forces TV) 27th August 2020

Apache pilots and ground crew are back training following a pause during the coronavirus pandemic ahead of a major upgrade of the UK's attack helicopters. As part of Exercise Talon Hydra at STANTA (Stanford Training Area) in Norfolk, personnel from 3 Regiment Army Air Corps and reservist units have been sharpening their skills in Forward Arming and Refuelling. It is the last time they are training with the current model of the helicopter as the new, "state-of-the-art" AH-64E Apaches are set to be introduced later this year.

Lord Jim wrote: maybe even SPEAR or Spike NLOS integrated and we will be on a roll.

The 'or' in there saves the day as Spear is a fast jet option. NLOS we have already integrated for the Koreans, on Wildcats, so we could easily do that... and reverse the roles from what was originally the thinking:
- have the Apaches declaring targets (while they do their own job, in the front)
- and have Wildcats with Spoke Nlos, lobbing them fro further back. A bit like quarterbacks, except no need to catch...

Noticed we still only get 50 so already down from the original 60 odd .so even if they do scrap tanks etc and I'm not saying they going to yet ,even after that they already down to 50 now ,cut cut cut only going one direction folks ,that's my basic argument with those incharge , hoping people already forgotten that they already cut numbers