UK Defence Forum

That Emergency Flotation Gear ordered years ago... it exists.



Let Kinder Surprise Eggs and Minions jokes begin!

Far less funny, reading into the journal it seems that part of why it took so bloody long is that the bags, when they are inflated, force the fall off of the external fuel tanks (if fitted). Apparently this was regarded as a very serious problem until the test pilot gently bumped heads together explaining that if the helicopter is falling into the water, the fall of the external tanks is the last thing of concern...

The list was long as your arm... any other items actually in place by now (for marinising)?

wow never seen them inflated before. As this is UK only spec is it being transferred to the new ones?

Hope so. Shouldn't be too much of an issue, don't think there is much difference in those areas of the helicopter between AH1 and Block III.

bobp wrote:More news about the Apache order here:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... build.html

Beginning to wonder if 38 is the final number?

So was I - however !

The Government have confirmed that they intend to order the full 50 AH-64E Apache helicopters set out in the Strategic Defence & Security Review by the end of the year.

The information comes from a question asked in Parliament by Mr Kevan Jones, MP for North Durham:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, when he expects his Department to complete the order for all 50 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters.”

Answered by Harriett Baldwin, Under Secretary of State for Defence Procurement:

“The Ministry of Defence is buying 50 Apache AH-64E helicopters from the US Government under a Foreign Military Sales arrangement. The US has ordered the first 38 of the UK helicopters as part of its own larger purchase, under a multi-year contract with Boeing.

This ensures we can take advantage of economies of scale and secure best value for the UK taxpayer, while procuring a vital capability for the UK. We expect the remaining 12 helicopters to be incorporated within the contract by the end of the year.”

A contract modification detailed by the US Department of Defense in June indicated that Boeing has been awarded $411 million for 38 Apache aircraft for the UK.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-com ... -end-year/

Pongoglo wrote:

bobp wrote:More news about the Apache order here:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... build.html

Beginning to wonder if 38 is the final number?

So was I - however !

The Government have confirmed that they intend to order the full 50 AH-64E Apache helicopters set out in the Strategic Defence & Security Review by the end of the year.

The information comes from a question asked in Parliament by Mr Kevan Jones, MP for North Durham:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, when he expects his Department to complete the order for all 50 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters.”

Answered by Harriett Baldwin, Under Secretary of State for Defence Procurement:

“The Ministry of Defence is buying 50 Apache AH-64E helicopters from the US Government under a Foreign Military Sales arrangement. The US has ordered the first 38 of the UK helicopters as part of its own larger purchase, under a multi-year contract with Boeing.

This ensures we can take advantage of economies of scale and secure best value for the UK taxpayer, while procuring a vital capability for the UK. We expect the remaining 12 helicopters to be incorporated within the contract by the end of the year.”

A contract modification detailed by the US Department of Defense in June indicated that Boeing has been awarded $411 million for 38 Apache aircraft for the UK.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-com ... -end-year/

38 for $411million? Is that correct? That sounds ridiculously cheap.....

dmereifield wrote:38 for $411million? Is that correct? That sounds ridiculously cheap.....

Yes at that price I'll take a couple...the original budget was $3bn What happens to the remaining 16 aircraft from the original 67 purchased?

I believe the 3bn price is for all 50 plus spares ,ground equipment, longbow radars etcetera.....

38 for $411million? Is that correct? That sounds ridiculously cheap.....

Remember, they are not wholly new helicopters, but rebuilt ones. A whole lot of stuff is already in british hands and only needs to be refurbished and moved from old airframe to new airframe.

411 million will not be the whole story, that covers the costs of US material and work. There will be other costs... on the other hand, the FMS request included a whole lot of equipment that might now not be acquired. In particular, there was a whole lot of items for the Defensive Aids System in the request, but the MOD has since contracted Leonardo to take the existing HIDAS fit and modify it to enable its migration onto the rebuilt Block III Apaches. That cuts a whole lot of stuff out of the purchase.

Gabriele wrote: the MOD has since contracted Leonardo to take the existing HIDAS fit and modify it to enable its migration

Common sense triumphant, finally

Not quite correct. They are brand new airframes with brand new engines. Capable of flying.

Some add on system are being re-used from BA Apaches.

It's kinda like you buying a new car but re-installing your fancy audio system from your old vehicle.

The Army Air Corps, Prince Harry’s flying force, to be cut in defence revamp
Deborah Haynes, Defence Editor

October 4 2017, 12:01am, The Times
The Army Air Corps, which provides surveillance and combat support, is to lose five squadrons

The army’s air force is to shrink by almost a quarter in a cost-cutting measure that will change the shape of military aviation.

The Army Air Corps (AAC), which provides surveillance and combat support and once included Prince Harry in its ranks, is set to lose five squadrons and 400 posts.
The Army Air Corps and why it matters

Senior sources questioned whether the reduction in staffing and aircraft would take the unit below “critical mass”, opening up the possibility of the AAC being split between the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy’s Fleet Air Arm, 60 years after it was formed.

“It’s goodbye, goodbye,” said a senior former officer, adding that the AAC traditionally felt that it had a raw deal: “The Army Air Corps has always felt on the hind tit and being kicked by the rest of the army.”

The plans, which have yet to be finalised, are part of a revamp of the army to cut costs and improve efficiency. They will also be influenced by the mini review of defence that will conclude in December. “It is a proposal that looks likely to be implemented,” a military source said.

Under the Army 2020 Refine plan, 400 jobs out of the 1,700 staff roles in the AAC will go. In addition about 200 of 2,000 attached support posts provided by the Royal Mechanical and Electrical Engineers, Royal Logistic Corps and Adjutant General’s Corps will be erased.

A source said that affected personnel would be moved into other areas of the army so that the move would not result in redundancies.

Planned structural alterations mean that any plans to rebuild two additional squadrons to fly the Wildcat attack helicopter will be scrapped. Instead only 661 and 659 squadrons will continue to operate the aircraft, which is also flown by the Royal Navy. A third squadron will be a training and conversion unit.

Plans to purchase additional Wildcat helicopters to equip 657 squadron, which supports Britain’s special forces, have also been ditched. The Times reported last month that the unit would lose its Lynx Mk9A helicopters next year, but at the time a Ministry of Defence source insisted that the aircraft would be replaced. This is no longer the case.

In other changes, an entire fleet of 34 Gazelle observation helicopters, operated by 655 squadron from Northern Ireland, has had its out-of-service date brought forward to next year, Tim Ripley, who wrote about the AAC shake up in Jane’s Defence Weekly, said.

A contingent of fixed-wing Islander and Defender aircraft also operated by 651 squadron, will be handed over to the RAF. These moves will result in an entire regiment, 5 Regiment Army Air Corps, which comprises 651 and 655 squadrons, being disbanded, Jane’s reported.

The best-known pilot to fly the AAC’s Apache helicopter is Prince Harry, whose father, the Prince of Wales, is colonel-in-chief of the corps.

An army spokesman said: “The examination of aviation structures as part of the army structural change work to implement SDSR15 is ongoing. Final decisions on structures, locations and personnel numbers are not expected until the end of the year.”
Top-flight achievements of the Army Air Corps

Helicopters flown by the AAC were in a special forces rescue mission to save five British soldiers held in Sierra Leone in 2000.
Prince Harry was deployed to Helmand province in Afghanistan as a co-pilot gunner with 662 Squadron, 3 Regiment AAC, from September 2012 to January 2013. His squadron fired on Taliban targets and provided surveillance for ground troops.
Apache helicopters operated for the first time at sea in 2011, flying from HMS Ocean, a Royal Navy carrier, in an operation against the Gaddafi regime.
Apache helicopters are due to operate from HMS Queen Elizabeth, the new aircraft carrier, and could provide the first strike aircraft before F-35 fast jets are introduced.

The shroud waving for the AAC has been around for a while interesting there has been some suggestion of them pinching drones from the Royal Artillery. Given most of the recce role of the gazelle is now carried out by drones thats not surprising though operating watchkeeper over Northern Ireland could be interesting.
More wild cat could easily be made available to equip AAC sqns by replacing a large chunk of the Royal Navies with the much more capable Merlin and giving merlin Air to surface capability.

Ron5 wrote:The Army Air Corps, Prince Harry’s flying force, to be cut in defence revamp
Deborah Haynes, Defence Editor

October 4 2017, 12:01am, The Times
The Army Air Corps, which provides surveillance and combat support, is to lose five squadrons

The army’s air force is to shrink by almost a quarter in a cost-cutting measure that will change the shape of military aviation.

The Army Air Corps (AAC), which provides surveillance and combat support and once included Prince Harry in its ranks, is set to lose five squadrons and 400 posts.
The Army Air Corps and why it matters

Senior sources questioned whether the reduction in staffing and aircraft would take the unit below “critical mass”, opening up the possibility of the AAC being split between the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy’s Fleet Air Arm, 60 years after it was formed.

“It’s goodbye, goodbye,” said a senior former officer, adding that the AAC traditionally felt that it had a raw deal: “The Army Air Corps has always felt on the hind tit and being kicked by the rest of the army.”

The plans, which have yet to be finalised, are part of a revamp of the army to cut costs and improve efficiency. They will also be influenced by the mini review of defence that will conclude in December. “It is a proposal that looks likely to be implemented,” a military source said.

Under the Army 2020 Refine plan, 400 jobs out of the 1,700 staff roles in the AAC will go. In addition about 200 of 2,000 attached support posts provided by the Royal Mechanical and Electrical Engineers, Royal Logistic Corps and Adjutant General’s Corps will be erased.

A source said that affected personnel would be moved into other areas of the army so that the move would not result in redundancies.

Planned structural alterations mean that any plans to rebuild two additional squadrons to fly the Wildcat attack helicopter will be scrapped. Instead only 661 and 659 squadrons will continue to operate the aircraft, which is also flown by the Royal Navy. A third squadron will be a training and conversion unit.

Plans to purchase additional Wildcat helicopters to equip 657 squadron, which supports Britain’s special forces, have also been ditched. The Times reported last month that the unit would lose its Lynx Mk9A helicopters next year, but at the time a Ministry of Defence source insisted that the aircraft would be replaced. This is no longer the case.

In other changes, an entire fleet of 34 Gazelle observation helicopters, operated by 655 squadron from Northern Ireland, has had its out-of-service date brought forward to next year, Tim Ripley, who wrote about the AAC shake up in Jane’s Defence Weekly, said.

A contingent of fixed-wing Islander and Defender aircraft also operated by 651 squadron, will be handed over to the RAF. These moves will result in an entire regiment, 5 Regiment Army Air Corps, which comprises 651 and 655 squadrons, being disbanded, Jane’s reported.

The best-known pilot to fly the AAC’s Apache helicopter is Prince Harry, whose father, the Prince of Wales, is colonel-in-chief of the corps.

An army spokesman said: “The examination of aviation structures as part of the army structural change work to implement SDSR15 is ongoing. Final decisions on structures, locations and personnel numbers are not expected until the end of the year.”
Top-flight achievements of the Army Air Corps

Helicopters flown by the AAC were in a special forces rescue mission to save five British soldiers held in Sierra Leone in 2000.
Prince Harry was deployed to Helmand province in Afghanistan as a co-pilot gunner with 662 Squadron, 3 Regiment AAC, from September 2012 to January 2013. His squadron fired on Taliban targets and provided surveillance for ground troops.
Apache helicopters operated for the first time at sea in 2011, flying from HMS Ocean, a Royal Navy carrier, in an operation against the Gaddafi regime.
Apache helicopters are due to operate from HMS Queen Elizabeth, the new aircraft carrier, and could provide the first strike aircraft before F-35 fast jets are introduced.

Well, if you ask me, a pretty sensible cut there.

The AH64E buy, plus wildcat will provide the Army a credible capability. Pleased to hear rumours of an MH47 buy for JPR and SF.

Watch out for the second phase of the AH-64E to quietly fade away as part of the need to close the funding gap. There won't be any announcements, instead the Spin Doctors will concentrate on the order already placed hoping the voting public will forget the result is a halving of the AAC's Apache fleet from around 70 to 36. Then again the Labour/Hitler youth movement that is our student population don't care now and as the country's future voters won't care then either.

Lord Jim wrote:Watch out for the second phase of the AH-64E to quietly fade away as part of the need to close the funding gap. There won't be any announcements, instead the Spin Doctors will concentrate on the order already placed hoping the voting public will forget the result is a halving of the AAC's Apache fleet from around 70 to 36. Then again the Labour/Hitler youth movement that is our student population don't care now and as the country's future voters won't care then either.

But never mind, because "with growing defence budget UK Armed Forces are goeing from strength to strength with world-class equipment..."

Whilst ordered the Bombardier situation could yet put a bit of a crimp on this project.

Remember the DUP coalition agreement that gave NI assembly £1 billion? Well the 125 passenger aircraft that Delta Airlines have ordered from Bombardier have been slapped with 222% import quotas after Boeing lobbied the US government to stop it. Probably worth well north of a couple of billion to NI's economy alone.

The Bombardier factory which produces the wings for these is in Belfast, which already has high unemployment. And the constituencies affected are all DUP marginals. Like sub 2000 vote marginals.

Hence the strong denunciations by the MoD, namely that it isn't the sort of behavior they expect from a partner. And to be fair the import tariffs do violate everything from WTO rules to the fine detail of NAFTA etc.

The DUP holds the whip hand over the Government here and they aren't going to take this lying down. With the P-8 a necessity and no other $ denominated capabilities on the chopping block ( or leaked list at any rate) other than a slowing of the F-35 purchases this could become rather interesting rather quickly.

The UK hasn't any position to use the Apache deal for it at all. There's no other realistic option that matches the capability required by the UK, nor can they afford to drop the numbers any further without crippling the Army.

Boeing knows it. The UK has no ball to throw down here at all.

No import duties/fine has been imposed yet.

And not clear that the US, if it did end up taking the punitive actions, would be breaking any WTO or NAFTA rules. Both do not like dumping.

They could develop WildCat into Apaches role.

Wildcat doesn't have anywhere near the capabilities to do that. No ATGMs, no mast mounted radar, no 30mm chin gun, no integration with rockets like CRV7 or Hydra and doesn't have the same internal systems.

Nothing that couldn't be added

You'd be better off joining Italy on the successor to the A-129 than try to make Wildcat what it is not and will never be able to be.

By the time you completely change the cockpit, electronics, fuselage, flight window, avionics, integration, pilot interface, pilot helmet and systems layout you'd basically have a brand new helicopter.

Look at how much had to be done to turn the UH-1 into the Cobra, and even then the Cobra is a long, long way from what the Apache is.

It would cost a ridiculous amount, it would take well over a decade, and it would require experience that the UK entirely lacks, having never designed a modern attack helicopter.

Gabriele is correct that if there was no alternative but to go elsewhere, then Italy is the only partner to run with, but even that is still "on paper", while the WAH-1 needs replaced very soon.