Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 30 May 2016, 21:17

O.P.S.E.C.

marktigger · Post by **marktigger** » 30 May 2016, 23:19

i wonder will the new American engines offer better performance the the RTM322

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 31 May 2016, 04:41

O.P.S.E.C.

ArmChairCivvy · Post by **ArmChairCivvy** » 31 May 2016, 05:13

arfah wrote:
Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (Army Air Corps)
Unread postby arfah » 31 May 2016, 04:41

marktigger wrote:
i wonder will the new American engines offer better performance the the RTM322

The RTM 322 has more power than the GE T700-701D

From Turbomeca's own website:

"The RTM 322 01/12 powers the AgustaWestland Apache AH Mk.1 attack helicopter. It serves the British Army Air Corps and has been deployed in combat in Afghanistan and Libya. This variant delivers take-off power of 2,101 shp and a cruise power of 1,842 shp. Maximum power in the One Engine Inoperative (OEI) rating is 2,472 shp."

Rolls Royce no longer has any input with the RTM 322 and it is wholly manufactured and supported by Turbomeca.

GE Aviation T700-701D
http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... 0-701D.pdf

Logistically, the GE offers better support as the UK MOD can tap into USAFE and USArmyEUR.

Does it not help that each Merlin has three of the "French" RTM engines?

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 31 May 2016, 05:27

O.P.S.E.C.

ArmChairCivvy · Post by **ArmChairCivvy** » 31 May 2016, 06:38

Sure, I was coming at it from the angle:
- one logistics chain with (2 times X part numbers) minus Z
is better than
- two logistics chains with X plus X part numbers

A bit like why don't we re-engine an AFV with the engines that will go into Ajax AFVs anyway; may be the engines will have to be rated differently; the gear box may have to be different due to the weight difference etc...

Jdam · Post by **Jdam** » 31 May 2016, 07:22

bobp wrote:Seems sensible to go direct because if AW had the maintenance contract they would still have to get the spares from Boeing before adding a bit to the price. My one question would be what about UK weapons such as Brimstone.

There is a feasibility study getting done for it, how know if it go any where with it

marktigger · Post by **marktigger** » 31 May 2016, 08:49

but being a straight purchase of 64E it'll be with the T700

shark bait · Post by **shark bait** » 31 May 2016, 09:45

arfah wrote:£8.5million cost per airframe.

That seems way off. Even the Americans are paying about three times as much as that figure.

bobp · Post by **bobp** » 31 May 2016, 11:12

I believe that's a refurbishment price to bring our Apaches up to the latest standard and zero the airframe hours. Not the price of a new one

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 31 May 2016, 13:38

O.P.S.E.C.

shark bait · Post by **shark bait** » 31 May 2016, 14:08

Thanks, does that £8.5million include new engines? if it does that seems like good value!

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 31 May 2016, 14:43

O.P.S.E.C.

bobp · Post by **bobp** » 31 May 2016, 15:15

This is roughly what 3 bn buys, note the word remanufacture ...

The Government of the United Kingdom has requested the remanufacture of fifty (50) United Kingdom (UK) WAH-64 Mk 1 Attack Helicopters to AH-64E Apache Guardian Helicopters with one hundred and ten (110) T-700-GE-701D Engines (100 installed and 10 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-three (53) AN/ASQ-170 Modernized Target Acquisition and Designation Sights (M-TADS) (50 installed and 3 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-three (53) AN/AAR-11 Modernized Pilot Night Vision Sensors (PNVS) (50 installed and 3 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-two (52) AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars (FCR) (50 installed and 2 spares) with fifty-five (55) Radar Electronics Units (Longbow Component) (50 installed and 5 spares), fifty-two (52) AN/APR-48B Modernized Radar Frequency Interferometers (50 installed and 2 spares), sixty (60) AAR-57(V) 3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) with 5th Sensor and Improved Countermeasure Dispenser (50 installed and 10 spares), one hundred and twenty (120) Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS) with Inertial Navigation (100 installed and 20 spares), and three hundred (300) Apache Aviator Integrated Helmets.

Also included are AN/AVR-2B Laser Detecting Sets, AN/APR-39D(V)2 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, Integrated Helmet and Display Sight Systems (IHDSS-21), Manned-Unmanned Teaming International (MUMT-I), KOR-24A Link 16 terminals, M206 infrared countermeasure flares, M211 and M212 Advanced Infrared Countermeasure Munitions (AIRCMM) flares, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders, ammunition, communication equipment, tools and test equipment, training devices, simulators, generators, transportation, wheeled vehicles, organizational equipment, spare and repair parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $3.00 billion.

shark bait · Post by **shark bait** » 31 May 2016, 15:19

£1,624 million worth of optional extras.

Not quite £8 million an aircraft

arfah · Post by **arfah** » 31 May 2016, 15:54

O.P.S.E.C.

shark bait · Post by **shark bait** » 31 May 2016, 16:45

I wasn't suggesting it was arfah

ArmChairCivvy · Post by **ArmChairCivvy** » 01 Jun 2016, 11:36

Bobp put the full detail on this board; the 3 bn seems to be a rounding (up) as is the custom with FMS - so that the process does not need a repeat run for some small change in specs (or quantity); from DID today

"It's been reported that the British government is set to buy 50 AH-64E Apaches off-the-shelf from Boeing in a deal expected to be worth $2.9 billion. The announcement confirming the sale is expected to be made at the Royal International Air Tattoo or Farnborough air show in July."

So, by cutting from the original 67 down to 50, and going for remanufacture, we seem to have (will have?)managed to regenerate the capability with the same amount of dollars that was spent in pounds; NAO in 2002 (when the delivery was still running):

" Deliveries against the
prime contract will be completed in April 2004, four months later than
planned. The cost of the helicopter is currently expected to be £3.068 billion,
which is £71 million above the original approved cost. This increase is due to
a combination of higher than expected modification costs and the increased
costs of trials. The total acquisition cost of the project, including the training
package, is expected to be £4.117 billion"

We can skip the training package this time (the same was done in the original budgeting, forgetting to include such a minor item). We should not need increased trials, either, by going for the already proven design. Some may remember how it originally was possible to fire missiles from just one side of the chopper, to avoid blowing off the tail rotor.

Post by **Ron5** » 02 Jun 2016, 05:03

I'm a bit puzzled that the recent reports talk about brand new Apache's rather than re-manufactured examples. I know the original team considered both approaches.

Does this mean totally new machines will be ordered or are the various news sources oblivious to the difference?

bobp · Post by **bobp** » 02 Jun 2016, 06:40

I guess once remanufactured they will be as good as new anyway. This is how most of the US ones are being done as well.

Gabriele · Post by **Gabriele** » 02 Jun 2016, 09:31

DE&S Corporate Plan says the Apache programme will re-use parts from existing Apache AH1 where possible / advantageous.

That means re-manufacturing, same as the US Army is doing. The US Army is re-manufacturing all its existing Apaches and just a small portion of the E are actual new builds. The only reason that could get the UK going in another direction is if the british-only AH1 modifications make it not possible to migrate systems.
But, at least with a part of them, that is not the case. I think it'll be definitely a case of re-manufacturing.

LordJim · Post by **LordJim** » 02 Jun 2016, 12:09

Many DE&S plans state this. How much is actually used will hopefully be Boeing's decision rather than have the MOD insist which parts are transferred.

sea_eagle · Post by **sea_eagle** » 02 Jun 2016, 21:00

Hi enjoy all the contributions here but tend to be a reader rather than a poster.

I haven't seen any comment about how these are supposed to operate from the carriers? What about all the safety and other modifications required to operate at sea? I know this as Gabrielle has written excellent articles about what is needed?

Post by **Ron5** » 08 Jun 2016, 19:52

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-426161/

2nd to last para of interest to UK readers.

Incidentally, maybe the MoD should get Qatar to negotiate on their behalf, 24 brand new Apache E's plus other stuff for under $700 million. Good deal.

Maybe the UK should buy new Apache and have Westlands transfer the British kit (radios etc) from the retiring aircraft.

bobp · Post by **bobp** » 08 Jun 2016, 21:11

Reading the flight global article I came to the conclusion that these are not fitted with the Longbow kit and possibly other systems. That will come at extra cost.