Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

[Old RN]

Given that there is now confirmation (?) that the new UK Apache will have Brimstone 2 missiles, and given they have 40+km range (if you believe Wikipedia) , how will this change the tactics of the attack helicopters? They will be able to hit precision targets well behind the battlefront, a function they have never had before.

[Gabriele]

Don't think it is quite certain yet, but that should be the direction of travel. The aim is to replace Hellfire in 2021, so, being the remanufactured Apaches planned to be delivered beginning in 2020, there should be the chance to deliver them ready for Brimstone.

[marktigger]

I wonder with the modifications on the AH64E will it replace AH1 in the USMC to. I digress

interesting how we've improved Hellfire wonder if Brimstone will go onto Wildcat, Merlin as well as F35, typhoon and reaper. But I do wonder should we look at surface launched versions on ships or vehicles.

[Jdam]

interesting how we've improved Hellfire wonder if Brimstone will go onto Wildcat, Merlin as well as F35, typhoon and reaper. But I do wonder should we look at surface launched versions on ships or vehicles.

Lets get it onto the Apache first. We test fired the missile from the Predator drone and that didn't come to anything.

[marktigger]

i think its also been tested against small boats

[ArmChairCivvy]

40+km range (if you believe Wikipedia) , how will this change the tactics of the attack helicopters? They will be able to hit precision targets well behind the battlefront, a function they have never had before.

Folks that want that (badly) have bought Wildcats, installed with NLOS.

[ArmChairCivvy]

will it replace AH1 in the USMC to. I digress

Doubt it v much; they place more emphasis than anyone else on maintainability in the field and the AH/UH commonality at parts level will be important.

[ArmChairCivvy]

i think its also been tested against small boats

Yep, utube it

[sea_eagle]

MBDA and Boeing have jointly completed a series of firing trials of the Brimstone 2 missile on the AH-64E attack helicopter

This means the UK Apache helicopters will soon be able to rain Hellfire & Brimstone on the enemy. Cool

[Ron5]

Given that there is now confirmation (?) that the new UK Apache will have Brimstone 2 missiles, and given they have 40+km range (if you believe Wikipedia) , how will this change the tactics of the attack helicopters? They will be able to hit precision targets well behind the battlefront, a function they have never had before.

Given that there is now confirmation (?) that the new UK Apache will have Brimstone 2 missiles, and given they have 40+km range (if you believe Wikipedia) , how will this change the tactics of the attack helicopters? They will be able to hit precision targets well behind the battlefront, a function they have never had before.

That's a very good question (how will a UK Apache use over the horizon targeting). I don't know but in discussions about extended range Hellfires, one possibility was getting their targeting info via link 16 from an airborne ISTAR asset. In UK terms, I guess that would be a Sentinel. That would be a lethal combo.

However, even tho Link 16 is new for US AH-64E, I don't know if it is part of the UK order.

As for Brimstone on Apache, we need to remember that was proof of concept trials that were just successfully completed i.e. will it work. The longer and more expensive integration of Brimstone with Apache has not yet been performed i.e. make it part of the Apache weapon system capable of being aimed and fired with the Apache targeting systems. I don't know if that has been funded. I did read an expectation it would be done toward the end of this year.

Someone mentioned Brimstones firing at boats. The US AH-64E have an upgrade that will enable improved over water targeting. My understanding is that is a software only upgrade to the Longbow radar. New built UK Apaches will be fitted with refurbished Longbows taken from existing UK machines. I assume adding the software upgrade would not be a problem. But, once again, I don't know and with 'puters, assumptions are always dangerous.

[marktigger]

i suspect they will be standard but there may be bits the americans don't want us to have and bits of code we'll add that we don't want them to have.

[Timmymagic]

[quote="Ron5"]That's a very good question (how will a UK Apache use over the horizon targeting). I don't know but in discussions about extended range Hellfires, one possibility was getting their targeting info via link 16 from an airborne ISTAR asset. In UK terms, I guess that would be a Sentinel. That would be a lethal combo.

IIRC the 40km+ range is from a fast mover. It will still be very long ranged, but might lose a few km from a helicopter.

In terms of targeting the control and pairing of UAV's and Apache E's open up a lot of possibility with the Apache operating as a stand off shooter after target acquisition. If that works successfully (and if we pair it with the right ISTAR assets, and a suitably cheap battlefield UAV) it could address a lot of concerns about the survivability of AH over a modern battlefield.

In terms of weapon integration I think the more interesting thing, now that Brimstone is a given, is if we adopt an APKWS guided CRV7 or go down the LMM/Martlet route. I'd love to see both as APKWS on CRV7 seems a no-brainer, but LMM integration throws open the interesting possibility of finally seeing Starsteak on Appache after successful trials years ago.

[Old RN]

In terms of Brimstone 2 range the Wikipedia quote is 40+km from helicopters and 60+km from fast jets!

[Gabriele]

They will be able to hit precision targets well behind the battlefront, a function they have never had before.

Apaches have actually been used in deep strikes in several occasions. They were part of the opening moves in Iraq, for example. Having a networked, longer range weapon and the ability to receive targeting information from UAS will make it easier and more effective. Moreover, what it really does is helping to keep the Apache out of range of modern SHORAD and vSHORAD air defences.

[arfah]

O.P.S.E.C.

[jimthelad]

I wonder if if would be technically possible to integrate a RF homer sensor into this in a bigger airframe ( Meteor). This would be an awesome SEAD weapon. I know they talked about Armiger but that is a dead program.

[Timmymagic]

It would be fairly straightforward. But the RAF is looking to move to DEAD with SPEAR 3. For SEAD it would make more sense to re-resurrect ALARM with it's loiter capability. For the UK the F-35 negates the need for the long range AND speed of a Meteor ARM. The SPEAR 3 has the range. If we were looking to have a missile to attack enemy radars fast in a reactive sense it would probably make more sense (in an operational and cost sense) to have one based on CAMM, sort of a modern day SideARM.

[Timmymagic]

Brimstone characteristics straight from the horses mouth, MBDA.

They don't say much on range. Think Defence in his excellent Complex Weapons series had this to say..

"The range of Brimstone is generally accepted to be approximately 20km, with Brimstone 2, again, generally accepted as approximately 20km. These are in situations where the missiles launch speed is augmented by the fast jets own speed, for rotary or ground platforms, the range will be reduced."

If you've not read the entire series it is well worth the read...

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/uk-complex-weapons/

[Ron5]

That's a very good question (how will a UK Apache use over the horizon targeting). I don't know but in discussions about extended range Hellfires, one possibility was getting their targeting info via link 16 from an airborne ISTAR asset. In UK terms, I guess that would be a Sentinel. That would be a lethal combo.

IIRC the 40km+ range is from a fast mover. It will still be very long ranged, but might lose a few km from a helicopter.

In terms of targeting the control and pairing of UAV's and Apache E's open up a lot of possibility with the Apache operating as a stand off shooter after target acquisition. If that works successfully (and if we pair it with the right ISTAR assets, and a suitably cheap battlefield UAV) it could address a lot of concerns about the survivability of AH over a modern battlefield.

In terms of weapon integration I think the more interesting thing, now that Brimstone is a given, is if we adopt an APKWS guided CRV7 or go down the LMM/Martlet route. I'd love to see both as APKWS on CRV7 seems a no-brainer, but LMM integration throws open the interesting possibility of finally seeing Starsteak on Appache after successful trials years ago.

UAVs controlled from Apaches has not exactly been problem free. Crew workload has been deemed to be excessive.

[Ron5]

It would be fairly straightforward. But the RAF is looking to move to DEAD with SPEAR 3. For SEAD it would make more sense to re-resurrect ALARM with it's loiter capability. For the UK the F-35 negates the need for the long range AND speed of a Meteor ARM. The SPEAR 3 has the range. If we were looking to have a missile to attack enemy radars fast in a reactive sense it would probably make more sense (in an operational and cost sense) to have one based on CAMM, sort of a modern day SideARM.

I was under the impression that the reason systems like Alarm had died is because they are so easily spoofed.

[bobp]

I was under the impression that the reason systems like Alarm had died is because they are so easily spoofed.

We wouldn't want it taking out our mobile phones now. In the first gulf war some of the US anti radiation missiles took out some communication towers in Saudi Arabia. These days they have to contend with a lot of frequencies and signals and as Ron5 mentioned can be easily fooled.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The main reason for Alarm having been taken off service is its lacking range; the launch platform would likely be destroyed before Alarm could get started with its job

[Ron5]

The main reason for Alarm having been taken off service is its lacking range; the launch platform would likely be destroyed before Alarm could get started with its job

93km according to the RAF website. Seems pretty good.

[Timmymagic]

I don't recall much about said about it's withdraws. It seemed to have reached a point where it needed to be mlu'd after the 2010 SDSR so got canned as a result, I suspect money was the issue. All I've seen about it's effectiveness is that it was regarded as far more effective than HARM in a real world context. I do wonder if the threat libraries were kept as updated as HARM, no idea if it shared a common database/library for updates. I would have thought so as that used to be something that NATO did well.

[Timmymagic]

93km according to the RAF website. Seems pretty good.

No idea what the actual range is, but I'd take any published range on the RAF's website with a massive dose of salt. If it's on there, its wrong, and usually by a healthy margin. Storm Shadow is listed as around 200 miles range and ASRAAM's used to be laughably low.