Starstreak HVM

[mr.fred]

...hundreds of millions over a couple of decades, the USN killer laser at sea on USS Ponce is still only claimed too be able to track slow moving UAV's and boats for the necessary fractions of a second time to blow them up. And that's in the calm waters and clear air of the Persian Gulf. The chances of a Starstreak operator tracking an anti-ship missile for the entire engagement on a murky afternoon in the North Sea seem to me to be less than zero.

Apologies in advance if I misunderstood your comment.

No, I think I misunderstood your comment. Apologies for that, but I still think that the problem is not so much of a show stopper as you do.

Is'nt it the same for SeaWolf? Why SeaWolf can kill ASM?

As I understand it, earlier Seawolf did have an optical mode for use against low-level targets but that was later removed when they got a radar system that could distinguish targets through the surface clutter.

Either way, stabilising a simple, light laser like the guidance laser for HVM/LMM from a ship is easy. We have stabilised sights on armoured vehicles that are working against a much more difficult environment. Ship movements are, due to their size, slow. The surface perturbations that cause them tend to be regular and predictable.
In addition, the maximum range you are working to is 8km, reducing the angular accuracy you need.
It isn't continuous illumination either. It just has to be on target when the darts get there. Which isn't a very long time.
I wouldn't want to rely on it in an AShM role, but it could work.

[marktigger]

against a small vessel like a patrol boat, dhow of skiff yes it would be effective the types of target wildcat will be expected to engage. a kirov class cruiser maybe not.

[marktigger]

nice to see Ballykinlar, I'm sure people driving through dundrum would have loved to know they were being tracked

[ArmChairCivvy]

As I understand it, earlier Seawolf did have an optical mode for use against low-level targets but that was later removed when they got a radar system that could distinguish targets through the surface clutter.

I have a vague recollection that the radar system was "borrowed" from the Rapier?

[marktigger]

type 911 radar was K band and based on blindfire radar

[donald_of_tokyo]

In 6:50-55, you can see the three darts hitting the target. Interesting motion/reaction.



I'm afraid the error-circle is a bit large, right enough to hit an aircraft, but may not be able to hit an in-coming ASM which has small cross-section. May be this was the reason SeaStreak was not adopted for ASM defense.

Looking at the darts, it has only 2 wings for control. In other words, it is 1-axis control. It is the rotation of the darts making it 2-dimensional guidance. The "spiral" movement of the darts shown in the movie also looks consistent with this view. If you look at LMM video, it shows similar "spiral" movement, so it is also 1-axis control. Good for making it cheap (LMM) and small (StarStreak with 3 DARTS in shoulder-launched missile!).

From the similarity in DARTS's movement, I guess it is either, easy to integrate StarStreal in LMM system (such as SeaHawk-sigma), or it is already done. If the StarStreak can shoot down in-coming ASM will depend on its new generation version, StarStreak II or even future developments.

[marktigger]

against smaller targets like missiles and drones blast fragmentation is a better option. For small surface vessels shaped charge would be effective. its more flexible than the dart system.

[mr.fred]

There was a press release recently about an updated version of star streak that improved its accuracy so that it could hit small drones.
Blast/frag is good vs drones but less so against missiles. I understand that the phalanx system uses APDS rather than HE shells because the HE will only strip off the control surfaces and make the missile go ballistic. At close range this isn't going to stop the missile hitting, so the better bet is a hittile that disrupts the warhead.
For small vessels an explosive warhead that hits, penetrates and then detonates is best - a shaped charge, surface detonated (or worse, remote detonated) will make a small hole right through and, most likely, not damage anything important. The darts would be better.

[marktigger]

There was a press release recently about an updated version of star streak that improved its accuracy so that it could hit small drones.
Blast/frag is good vs drones but less so against missiles. I understand that the phalanx system uses APDS rather than HE shells because the HE will only strip off the control surfaces and make the missile go ballistic. At close range this isn't going to stop the missile hitting, so the better bet is a hittile that disrupts the warhead.
For small vessels an explosive warhead that hits, penetrates and then detonates is best - a shaped charge, surface detonated (or worse, remote detonated) will make a small hole right through and, most likely, not damage anything important. The darts would be better.

Big difference is that phalanx fires 75 rds a second making it with the spread very similar to blast fragmentation.

the submunitions has similar performance to a 40mm projectile the LMM/Javelin/S15 carry a larger weight of projectile so more explosive power.

[marktigger]

interesting look at the disadvantages listed in wikipedia for starstreak then look at Starburst missile IE Javelin S15 which combines the missile of javelin with the guidance of Starstreak which eliminates allot of those disadvantages

[mr.fred]

Big difference is that phalanx fires 75 rds a second making it with the spread very similar to blast fragmentation.

the submunitions has similar performance to a 40mm projectile the LMM/Javelin/S15 carry a larger weight of projectile so more explosive power.

That only improves the probability of hit. Once you have scored a hit, you have to hit it hard enough to stop it. Blast/frag does not do that, which is why phalanx uses APDS and not HE shells.

interesting look at the disadvantages listed in wikipedia for starstreak then look at Starburst missile IE Javelin S15 which combines the missile of javelin with the guidance of Starstreak which eliminates allot of those disadvantages

But also eliminates the advantages of Starstreak; Speed and terminal ballistics.
If you can hit, the darts are much more damaging than an externally detonated blast/frag warhead

[marktigger]

you are exchanging the terminal ballistics for the greater probability of hitting a smaller target and the use of explosive power as opposed to Kenetic energy. Most of the Fragments from a blast fragmentation warhead will be travelling close to speed of sound and cover a greater area.

[mr.fred]

you are exchanging the terminal ballistics for the greater probability of hitting a smaller target and the use of explosive power as opposed to Kenetic energy. Most of the Fragments from a blast fragmentation warhead will be travelling close to speed of sound and cover a greater area.

Yes. You are quite correct. A blast/frag warhead will probably work better against a small UAV.
On the anti-missile side of things, a direct hit from a 20mm HE shell was considered ineffective. Proximity fused blast/frag is likely to be even less effective against such a target.
Against protected ground attack targets there is also a concern that small, high speed fragments will be ineffective.
Hitting something only does any good if you can hurt what you're hitting. Which is one of the reasons that Starstreak replaces the unitary starburst warhead with three darts.

[marktigger]

which is why you have "Impact" fuse setting giving a shaped charge just like was on blowpipe warhead

[mr.fred]

So then you only have one chance of hitting compared to three with the darts.

[marktigger]

So then you only have one chance of hitting compared to three with the darts.

in hitting a larger target like a tank or heavier target but thousands of chances of hitting a smaller targets like UAV, Missiles etc so you have greater flexibility.

[mr.fred]

in hitting a larger target like a tank or heavier target but thousands of chances of hitting a smaller targets like UAV, Missiles etc so you have greater flexibility.

This is getting cyclical. One more time:
If you hit a missile (or other resilient target) a thousand times with fragments that will not stop it, then it doesn't matter. If you rely on an impact fuse to do sufficient damage then you are restricted to a single projectile to hit with.

[RetroSicotte]

Aero India 2017: Thales signs Starstreak MOU with India's BDL

http://www.janes.com/article/67725/aero ... ndia-s-bdl

Thales has signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) with India's Bharat Dynamics Ltd with a view to assessing a technology transfer opportunity in relation to the Starstreak surface-to-air missile (SAM) system.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Aero India 2017: Thales signs Starstreak MOU with India's BDL

http://www.janes.com/article/67725/aero ... ndia-s-bdl

Thales has signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) with India's Bharat Dynamics Ltd with a view to assessing a technology transfer opportunity in relation to the Starstreak surface-to-air missile (SAM) system.

FFS...Do not ever enter ToT agreements with India! You are basically signing away future market competitiveness and not to mention, taking a hit to near term profits in the process (cough, cough, MMRCA).