Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
abc123
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:JLTV is the easy bit; we'll just need to decide 'how many'. And that's a direct function of what kind of units, and how many of them.

To work that out we'll need to decide which is the biggest threat (sure, they work in combination - a rank ordering is what I'm after):
- is it Putin's tanks doing a foray into Poland, and do we provide a recce screen for other nations' tank brigades, or...
- or his subs in the Atlantic and bombers in the North ( a UK ship building renaissance if this is the right answer)

OK, will continue on the IR thread
If both tasks can't be met, then IMHO this bolded part is the right answer. Simply because the UK was, is and will be an island country.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Scimitar54
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Well, if only we could be an island again,. Were it not for the mistaken construction of the CHANNEL TUNNEL”, we still would be. :mrgreen:

Ron5
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote:Is it cost
As it stands, yes. And I have a faint recollection that trials with a steel-bodied version did not go well
- a bit like the as such good (and British) ATV being made into a portee and loaded with the American 'lightweight' 155. Looked good, but axels broke when going x-country
Cost & load carrying. The latter being the reason for the steel bodied Foxhound not being produced (not sure it ever got to trials), the extra weight of the steel reduced load carrying even further. There's also top loading concerns on Foxhound, I don't think it could mount a RWS without falling over - another MVP requirement.

Thanks for info on the portee. I've wondered what killed the idea. Well apart from it being rather dated.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

SD67 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SD67 wrote:M1, Lynx, Boxer, Bushmaster, Hawkei, G-Wagen
France looked at Hawkei, but the likelihood of a line in Europe...? It was all about local content for Australia, too, as the type of vehicle is required in numbers.

Boxer - Bushmaster have enough cost differential to warrant two different vehicles across many roles, but otherwise I would stick to the (Army's) knitting if we are not to wave good-bye to any type of armoured vehicle production on these islands. (Wasn't Bushmaster at least designed in Ireland? ... ticks the 'islands' box)
Of that list, I would only consider Boxer for the UK. The rest are rather overpriced and average.

CH3 > Aussie standard M1
JLTV > Hawkei and cheaper
Landrover > G-Wagen because the UK has zillions of them already
Lynx is too expensive and a huge target
Bushmaster wasn't the first choice of the UK SF
Problem is CH3 doesn't exist, LandRover 100/90 are no longer in production, Ajax doesn't work yet after a decade of development. JLTV ok I can see the point there
The upgraded Aussie M1's don't exist either. Landrover's exists in their thousands, no need to make anymore for a while. I seem to remember their replacement date was 2030+. Production level Ajax variants seems to work fine in the last video's I saw, it's Lynx that's still in development. Besides, won't the Korean vehicle Redback (sp?) win the competition?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:JLTV is the easy bit; we'll just need to decide 'how many'. And that's a direct function of what kind of units, and how many of them.

To work that out we'll need to decide which is the biggest threat (sure, they work in combination - a rank ordering is what I'm after):
- is it Putin's tanks doing a foray into Poland, and do we provide a recce screen for other nations' tank brigades, or...
- or his subs in the Atlantic and bombers in the North ( a UK ship building renaissance if this is the right answer)

OK, will continue on the IR thread
Of course, nobody can predict future conflicts but for me, the one very nice thing about JLTV is that it pretty much works everywhere. They have useful roles in heavy armor brigade, Strike formations & COIN ops. Versatile. Can add value everywhere except for amphib & airborne and those seem to be going out of fashion. It's a decent little armored truck with some cross country ability and a decent small weapons platform for escort, recce & COIN. What's not to love?

Oh yes, not made in the UK and not available in a 6x6. I sure hope they're working on some alleviation to those. Can but hope.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

Scimitar54 wrote:Well, if only we could be an island again,. Were it not for the mistaken construction of the CHANNEL TUNNEL”, we still would be. :mrgreen:
Little known fact: there's a big plughole and plug half way through. One good tug on the chain and au revoir France.

Scimitar54
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Scimitar54 »

But the ships that once provided the connection (to wherever may have been required) are no longer available in the numbers that would be necessary. An early indication of the then forthcoming “Euro-blindness” and lack of strategic and tactical vision. :mrgreen:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote: the one very nice thing about JLTV is that it pretty much works everywhere. They have useful roles in heavy armor brigade, Strike formations & COIN ops. Versatile.
I agree and could not comprehend the US army justification for cutting their order (numbers): Was designed for another Iraq??
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Lord Jim
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

From the US Army's standpoint, they wanted to pump more funding unto their next generation AFV and other programmes. They probably decided the old Humvees could still do the job in some places and so reducing the JLTV numbers to raise cash must have made sense. Using argument that the JLTV was designed simply to fight wars like those in Iraq may have just been to justify it to the White House, Senate and Congress, aiming to capitalise on the growing non interventionist doctrine and/or war weariness taking hold in certain offices.

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madhon
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by madhon »

Ron5 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SD67 wrote:M1, Lynx, Boxer, Bushmaster, Hawkei, G-Wagen
Bushmaster wasn't the first choice of the UK SF
What was UK SF first choice ? the US AGMS Pandur ?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

madhon wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SD67 wrote:M1, Lynx, Boxer, Bushmaster, Hawkei, G-Wagen
Bushmaster wasn't the first choice of the UK SF
What was UK SF first choice ? the US AGMS Pandur ?
I believe so.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

Would look good on UK JLTV's. Maybe with the British Venom gun & LMM/Starstreak.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... adis-inc-1

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:
madhon wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SD67 wrote:M1, Lynx, Boxer, Bushmaster, Hawkei, G-Wagen
Bushmaster wasn't the first choice of the UK SF
What was UK SF first choice ? the US AGMS Pandur ?
I believe so.
What's the appeal of the Pandur?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:Would look good on UK JLTV's. Maybe with the British Venom gun & LMM/Starstreak.
Put that on a JLTV and the politicians will start calling it a tank. Bad move for the army budget.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

RunningStrong wrote:What's the appeal of the Pandur?
US Special Forces use it.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Would look good on UK JLTV's. Maybe with the British Venom gun & LMM/Starstreak.
Put that on a JLTV and the politicians will start calling it a tank. Bad move for the army budget.
Yeah looks exactly like a tank (eyes roll) ...

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RunningStrong
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:What's the appeal of the Pandur?
US Special Forces use it.
Yes, I know that, but on paper it appears to be unremarkable. I'm interested to know why it's preferred over say a Canadian AVGP? Or even Bushmaster for that matter.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RunningStrong wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:What's the appeal of the Pandur?
US Special Forces use it.
Yes, I know that, but on paper it appears to be unremarkable. I'm interested to know why it's preferred over say a Canadian AVGP? Or even Bushmaster for that matter.
At 13 t it's a mountain pony
... but has other limitations: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50864567
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

RunningStrong
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RunningStrong »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:What's the appeal of the Pandur?
US Special Forces use it.
Yes, I know that, but on paper it appears to be unremarkable. I'm interested to know why it's preferred over say a Canadian AVGP? Or even Bushmaster for that matter.
At 13 t it's a mountain pony
... but has other limitations: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50864567
Not surprising, by the time you had a mine blast floor, blast seats and a spall liner, you've quickly filled a lot of space. Don't agree with the F16 comparison though! Most Pandur drivers will be the junior member of the crew so it's a bottle neck for anyone in the unit.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RunningStrong wrote: Most Pandur drivers will be the junior member of the crew
What is the enlistment age (as for getting into combat units)?? [ ;) ]
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

Isn't there a newer version of the 6x6 Pandur that has these enhancements built in but without the height restrictions of legacy vehicles that have been modernised?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by SW1 »

We could re learn a lot of lessons by looking at what France has done with project scorpion and there refreshing of there entire armoured vehicle fleet.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:We could re learn a lot of lessons by looking at what France has done with project scorpion and there refreshing of there entire armoured vehicle fleet.
They didn't have a total waste of oxygen, Drayson, decide a UK amored industry wasn't in the national interest so he closed it all down. Can't even make a gun barrel bigger than a rifle in the UK anymore. Pathetic twerp.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote:Isn't there a newer version of the 6x6 Pandur that has these enhancements built in but without the height restrictions of legacy vehicles that have been modernised?
Didn't US SF spec their own version?
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:Isn't there a newer version of the 6x6 Pandur that has these enhancements built in but without the height restrictions of legacy vehicles that have been modernised?
Didn't US SF spec their own version?
I think so; they did show up a lot in the footage from Syria, until the Trumpeter called the 'retreat' tune
- the 4x4s that followed got pushed around by BTRs so now they have Bradleys (with a bit more traction). What comes to mind is S.Lebanon where the UN peacekeepers were closing roads for safety zones and Merkavas then came around for a push/ pull competition, against the 6x6s
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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