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British Army Future Wheeled APC

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
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Gabriele
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Gabriele » 19 Dec 2018, 11:31

That 38t armoured vehicle was always intended to be a glorified Saxon/Fuchs.


And it never was an intelligent thing, just as Stryker wasn't. The difference is that most users have now understood it; the British Army no.
And that's despite crazy plans about using that very same Saxon not just to get to the line of fire, but supposedly to outmanoeuvre the enemy battlegroups.

At least the germans do not have fantasies of armoured penetrations deep into enemy territory spearheaded by turretless APCs.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby mr.fred » 19 Dec 2018, 12:50

I think that the design is sensible enough, it’s the intent to use it in a way that it is not designed for that is lacking in critical rigour.

That said, Boxer has always seemed a little over built for an APC. The SEP or the AMV seemed a little more appropriate for that role.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Dec 2018, 17:19

Gabriele wrote:At least the germans do not have fantasies of armoured penetrations deep into enemy territory spearheaded by turretless APCs


... or may be they have lost them: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10067291/20/3

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Dec 2018, 17:36

ON the p0lus side you only have to buy new "Modules" capable of being fitted with a turret at a later date rather than carry our extensive modifications or buy new vehicles. I have also read that the UK APC variant will have an RWS with either a 12.7,, M2 or a 40mm AGL, both are an improvement over the LMG or GPMG fitted to the Saxon. I see the Boxer as the Great Grandchild of the Saracen rather then anything to do with the Boxer mind you.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Luke jones » 19 Dec 2018, 17:44

This whole idea is total bollocks.

As soon as a Strike brigade turns up in theatre after a mad dash across Europe itl get smashed if it ever lands up in front if the Russians.

If they arent going to buy the correct variants they should just sack it off completely.

Im sick to death of reading all these buzzwords about how it'll all work.

Its total and utter shite.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Dec 2018, 22:01

We need Boxer, and it is a pretty damn good platform. Yes we are buying only limited numbers of variants but that is just the beginning. As I mentioned it is a very cost effective platform to adapt to changing requirements, requiring only new modules rather than whole new vehicles.

Everyone here will agree that as they are currently laid out the Strike Brigade(s) are lacking in many areas but they are a foundation for what could be very effective formations if there is the will and open mindedness within the MoD and the CGS has already stated that further variants are being looked at for both Boxer and Ajax exactly because capability gaps have already been identified. Until the first Battalion is formed and this together with the Trials unit get there hand on the vehicles and train with them the Army has only a rough idea of what is definitely needed and what could be on the nice to have list.

Moving forward the Army should have three tiers of AFVs within its manoeuvre formations, ranging from the Heavy Armoured Infantry Brigades with Warrior, the Strike Brigades with Boxer and a number of Motorised Infantry units equipped with the MIV in both 4x4 and 6x6. Their are also studies underway to equip the Armoured Infantry with Boxer also and to use the it instead of the 6x6 variant of the MIV in many of the latter's planned roles.

Yes the programmes have been convoluted and poorly managed, but the blame must be spread far and wide. The results however should be the Army finally enters the 21st Century and evolves into a far more effective and relevant fighting force.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby mr.fred » 19 Dec 2018, 22:12

Boxer is MIV. Mechanised Infantry Vehicle. It will equip mechanised infantry battalions which are slated to be the mainstay of Strike Brigades.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 20 Dec 2018, 02:27

Yes but even with the minimum 500 bought that exceeds the number needed to equip the four Mechanised Infantry Battalions that will be in the "Strike" Brigades, Given there is the strong possibility we will order at least 800 and there is some talk of over 1200, there is the possibility of other roles being assigned to them, and other formations being equipped.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Dec 2018, 07:26

Lord Jim wrote:as they are currently laid out the Strike Brigade(s)
well, the SEG provides a nice smoke screen (being embryonic) and we don't exactly know... as some very essential hardware is missing
Lord Jim wrote: Until the first Battalion is formed and this together with the Trials unit get there hand on the vehicles
They could borrow some, the nearest "equal" so to say, to be used as proxies.
- the birth history for AMV is that 2 BTR-90s were bought for trials, as a benchmark
- then the domestic supplier was told: "you guys better come up with something better, as otherwise we will by loadsa of these "good enough" vehicles"
Lord Jim wrote:Their are also studies underway to equip the Armoured Infantry with Boxer also and to use the it instead of the 6x6 variant of the MIV in many of the latter's planned roles.

- very interesting
- after the decision on the US vehicle for the lighter variant, the 6x6 being a distinctive model (as opposed to a "version") has been logically in conflict with the whole broader drive of the initiative: to do away with the hickelty pickelty nature of the protected fleet (excl. of those that are meant to be "direct fire combatants")
Lord Jim wrote:the blame must be spread far and wide.

Don't worry :) ... major exercises have been held

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Dec 2018, 10:03

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Lord Jim wrote:
Until the first Battalion is formed and this together with the Trials unit get there hand on the vehicles

They could borrow some, the nearest "equal" so to say, to be used as proxies.


Did not take long (actually minus 2 days, 18 Dec) for military.com to come up with an example of doing exactly as per above:
"Right now, we are doing experiments and tactical training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, with vehicles that have a similar profile of the Mobile Protective Firepower to develop tactics, techniques and procedures for the light forces to work with mechanized vehicles in the close fight," said the Brig. Gen in charge of the prgrm


As a result, looks like even Infantry Bde CTs will be heavier than our Strike:
" if the Army in 2022 selects one of the companies to build production MPF systems, it likely will take another three years before the service will field the first of 504 of these lightweight tanks to infantry brigade combat teams."
- heavy as in mobile fire power, not in metric tons (necessarily)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Dec 2018, 06:29

AS a short term(ish) fix I would rather the Army retained its three Armoured Infantry Brigades, only equipped three Recce Regiments with Ajax and three Infantry Battalions with Boxer, and end up with three "Super" Brigades, each with;

1x Armoured Regiment (CR2 CSP).
1x Armoured Recce Regiment (Ajax).
2x Armoured Infantry Battalions (Warrior CSP).
1x Mechanised Infantry Battalion (Boxer APC).
1x Artillery Regiment (AS-90).

Deploying part or all of such a brigade give the MoD plenty of options.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 30 Dec 2018, 06:51

Moving off on a slight tangent, looking at the USMC and their decision to replace some or all of their aging tracked AAV with BAe Systems 8x8 ACV, should we look at purchasing a small(ish) number of these for the Royal Marines. Yes they currently have 200 odd Bv210 Vikings which though bought for use in arctic conditions, gave sterling service in Afghanistan, but these are not designed for ship to shore deployment. With the ACV the RM would gain a very useful platform, able to get ashore under their own steam whilst carrying thirteen marines, reducing the Marines reliance on landing craft, and then able to range far inland. The ACV cost the USMC around £3M per vehicle including support costs, fifty or so would be enough to transport an entire Commando and give Commanders another option for our early entry forces. It is not compatible with the Boxer but the Royal Marines have repeatedly had vehicles unique to their needs.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 09:18

Lord Jim wrote: bought for use in arctic conditions, gave sterling service in Afghanistan, but these are not designed for ship to shore deployment


Yes, France bought them for their mountain formations - snow and all that.

But it is difficult to see how they were "sterling" even against an opposition of limited means in A-stan... when they had to be replaced with a similar, but better protected vehicle through an UOR?

Yes, some would be needed for recce/ the sharp fighting end (the Dutch transferred their UN protected vehicles that were fully amphibious to their marines, and the limited numbers in the fleet did not get in the way)
- the Vikings could be more in the fire support/ command/ armoured ambulance role; there's only a hundred of them, but recently refurb'ed

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 30 Dec 2018, 10:46

There is definitely a role for the Viking especially in the north, and if you go right to the top and turn right this is about the only vehicle we have that can cope with the conditions without major modification. In some ways it is a bit like the Boxer in that to change roles you only have to buy a new back end.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 11:47

Lord Jim wrote:a bit like the Boxer in that to change roles you only have to buy a new back end.

... and they don't need to back to factory, for swapping modules

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 30 Dec 2018, 14:58

You don't have to send Boxer to the factory to change Modules , the base maintenance bay will do fine, and you can do it in the field if you really have to swap out one for another.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Jan 2019, 23:38

Interesting video of the LAV III showing how mobile the 8x8s are even when they have lost a wheel or two or even four!!

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 24 Jan 2019, 03:12

Yes, was a nice one, varied terrains. Reminds me of the MOWAG (the forefather) appearing as an oddity in the AFV publications, and now 8x8's v much the mainstream.

We will of course have the Boxer in the APC role and Ajax for recce. Australia is moving from ASLAVs to a different version of Boxer. ADM (australiandefence.com.au) once wrote about the the distinction in the roles of ozzie ASLAVs and LAVs in NZ and what more was required from effective use in cavalry/ recce role, and at what sacrifice:
" it should be acknowledged that both vehicles have been acquired to fulfill different roles. For the Australian Army, the ASLAV operates in the cavalry role. New Zealand Army LAV IIIs will be used in the infantry mobility role and direct fire support role.

Nonetheless, it could be envisaged that ASLAV and LAV III-equipped units might operate in the same operation, certainly in the same area of operations and quite possibly in close proximity to one another.
As an aside, the ASLAV is fully amphibious, while it is understood New Zealand's LAV III is not. The disparate armoured protection levels of the two vehicles could force operational restrictions where the LAV III would be impervious to certain threats but where the vulnerability of the ASLAV (with its lower protection levels) would be increased to perhaps unacceptable levels. ASLAV's armoured protection can be increased through the fitting of add-on armour kits, but only at the expense of its amphibious capability."

We have gone "tops" with protection (so has Australia), but what is notable is the deletion of mobility enhancers from our mixed wheels & tracks plan
- SV was to a have a gap bridging version
- when these were deleted, a stop-gap version (on 38 Warrior hulls) was proposed... only to be deleted
- being amphibious has not been a requirement at any stage (hence the enablers as an integral part of formation)
- Boxer is coming along nicely with weird and wonderful versions... anyone seen a bridge on the back, yet?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 24 Jan 2019, 17:12

ArmChairCivvy wrote:anyone seen a bridge on the back, yet?


Yes, we commented on the two proposals being offered not too long ago. One was from the UK.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 24 Jan 2019, 17:57

Ron5 wrote:One was from the UK.

Sorry, now I remember.

Might that be the same that was actually exported to Malesia and Indonesia (on Stormers) and proposed to be put onto Warriors?
- we have, of course heavier bridging unit on tracks, but there might be cases where these mobility enhancers tagging along become mobility inhibitors (to a medium force, like the Strike bdes are envisaged to be)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 24 Jan 2019, 18:58

Will any Boxer deal allow the UK to develop its own mission modules?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Jake1992 » 24 Jan 2019, 19:03

Lord Jim wrote:Will any Boxer deal allow the UK to develop its own mission modules?


Did we regain out partnership in the program allowing us to sell boxers on our own ?
If so then surely that allows us to develop modules as we see fit

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 24 Jan 2019, 19:11

I would have thought they would allow, if not encourage, anyone to develop new modules. Why wouldn't they?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Jan 2019, 13:30

Just checking

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 25 Jan 2019, 14:41

By weird & wonderful I meant not only the massive AMG (no, not from the Merc division :D ) artillery turret that has been fitted, but also the GMLRS toned-down rocketry cassette, which does not seem to be a Rheinmetall proposal as their website knows nothing about it... or my browser :( is sub-std


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