UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

British Army Future Wheeled APC

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
mr.fred
Member
Posts: 543
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby mr.fred » 22 Jul 2018, 21:23

Ron5 wrote:
mr.fred wrote:It’s about the same length, but the 30mm is 50% larger diameter, so you’d get a little more than twice as many .50 BMG rounds


Why don't you find out instead of guessing?

Who’s guessing?

arfah
Senior Member
Posts: 2367
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:02
Location: Niue
Contact:

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 22 Jul 2018, 22:57

Ron5 wrote:
arfah wrote:
Ron5 wrote:You folks need to look at the 30mmgun you are talking about. It's one of the weakest 30mm around. Low energy, short range, fan boi weapon.


Now try comparing it to the M2 RWS .50 cal.


How many shells of each can you carry in a JLTV?


not as many compared to the Boxer
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8001
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Jul 2018, 05:02

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:No doubt, in UK service, our B kits will differ slightly from the original versions. We've already seen one at DSEI sporting an anti-RPG nets which, to my understanding, are not part of the usual B kit offering.

Thanks, sounds v sensible, and adaptive to circumstances... to sum it up: cost effective

Lord Jim wrote:If you start sticking 30mm on 4x4s even if they are lightly armoured, somebody will always decide that are true AFVs and start using them as such.

Looks to me that there would be no change (exc. to the better; even though one can always dispute whether recce wagons - short of 40t :D - are AFVs) https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... b0j7hKHWVA

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 143
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RunningStrong » 23 Jul 2018, 07:53

Lord Jim wrote:If you start sticking 30mm on 4x4s even if they are lightly armoured, somebody will always decide that are true AFVs and start using them as such.

And enemies will start prioritising them as AFV too!

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Jul 2018, 14:24

I have always liked the Israeli way of thinking, with many of their AFVs be they light or heavy, they stick as many 12.7mm and 7.62mm Machine Guns as is feasible. Most seem to have at least one of the former and two of the latter in addition to an co-axial weapons installed. Definitely allows them to keep the oppositions heads down.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8001
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Jul 2018, 17:00

Sure, but the three probably derive more from the need in urban battle to be able to immediately open up, even to movement rather than just incoming fire
- 120 degree constant watch is doable with a little bit of head turning... not so easily done from under armour cover

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Jul 2018, 06:05

If you linked one or more of the weapon stations to a fire location detector or whatever they are called these days you would speed up the reaction time.

Timmymagic
Member
Posts: 952
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Timmymagic » 26 Jul 2018, 07:38

Lord Jim wrote:Most seem to have at least one of the former and two of the latter in addition to an co-axial weapons installed. Definitely allows them to keep the oppositions heads down.


Thats actually as a result of their first real urban warfare experience in 1982, it was a bit of an act of desperation due to not having much training or doctrine for FIBUA. Better than nothing in an urban area.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 26 Jul 2018, 17:39

It might have been an act of desperation but they found out it worked and have carried on fitting multiple MGs on their AFVs ever since.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Sep 2018, 00:46

Here is a possible candidate for the Boxer to give the "Strike" brigades some more firepower.
https://www.janes.com/article/82673/raf ... -spike-er2

Luke jones
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 11:13

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Luke jones » 05 Sep 2018, 08:26

Lord Jim wrote:Here is a possible candidate for the Boxer to give the "Strike" brigades some more firepower.
https://www.janes.com/article/82673/raf ... -spike-er2

Looks ideal.
Could that be just on an RWS type job or a more dedicated Swingfire type Boxer variant?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Sep 2018, 22:31

I was thinking more of a Striker style over watch platform but more so give the range and capabilities of the system.

Jake1992
Member
Posts: 833
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Jake1992 » 14 Sep 2018, 08:57

Has there been any more solid info on the numbers of boxers were looking at, Iv read and heard in various places any where from 500 to 1500

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5292
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 14 Sep 2018, 09:22

The 1500 is the old 'future orders' carrot on a stick to try and lower the unit cost. Any manufacturer worth their salt should know to ignore it.
@LandSharkUK

Jake1992
Member
Posts: 833
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Jake1992 » 14 Sep 2018, 09:59

shark bait wrote:The 1500 is the old 'future orders' carrot on a stick to try and lower the unit cost. Any manufacturer worth their salt should know to ignore it.


To me it would make sence to order and high number of boxer and Ajax varients, so eventually all our medium armour is replace by just 2 family's ( wheeled by boxer and track by Ajax )

I know this would need a large up front cost but that would be out weighed by the huge saving in training and maintaince through the long term

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5292
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 14 Sep 2018, 11:37

Absolutely. GD are offering and IFV version of Ajax to Australia for as part of Land 400, giving us a great opportunity to cooperate on Ajax and Bower.

Now is the time to cancel Warrior and forge ahead with a common platform, but I don't think the Army have the stomach or money for such a move.
@LandSharkUK

Jake1992
Member
Posts: 833
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Jake1992 » 14 Sep 2018, 11:54

shark bait wrote:Absolutely. GD are offering and IFV version of Ajax to Australia for as part of Land 400, giving us a great opportunity to cooperate on Ajax and Bower.

Now is the time to cancel Warrior and forge ahead with a common platform, but I don't think the Army have the stomach or money for such a move.


The problem is not the army but the politians they think too short term only on keeping year on year budget the same.

HMG need to start long term plans for what's best for each service and gets best value for tax payers money, if this means larger up front cost yet less cost as each project goes on then so be it.

I'd like to see both the Ajax IFV and boxer IFV in our service but fitted with the CT40 to keep comonality

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1880
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Gabriele » 14 Sep 2018, 12:13

I'm afraid the army definitely is a big part of the problem. If army 2020 and Ajax show something, that something is how confused the army is about what it wants to do.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 14 Sep 2018, 12:57

I think that is being a bit unfair on the Army. Yes their plans are confused but they are being asked to de more than at any other time with far less resources, funding is not secured to any extent to allow old and obsolete equipment to be replaced or even effectively modernised. The programmes that are in going have their funding fluctuate year on year and are forced to slow down to a crawl as other priorities arise with no new money. Army 2020 was an attempt to square the circle and ended up actually meeting none of the aspirations effectively. The Ten year equipment plans are an attempt to improve things but the majority of the funding has to be underpinned by efficiency savings, something the Treasury seems to think are infinite. With funding so tight the Army is overly cautious about those programmes that are moving forward and is desperate to future proof them. The delays and lack of momentum mean these programmes are also overtaken by changes in requirement leading to changes in specification and design. What should happen core example is a core "Vanilla" design should be approved and procured in a swift manner that meets say 75 to 80 percent of the Army's requirements. Once in service then it can be improved over time to cover requirements as they materialise. Unfortunately for the Army the indecision and changing of requirements means nothing actually gets delivered within the planned timeframe if at all.

Timmymagic
Member
Posts: 952
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Sep 2018, 21:52

Better put this here to get everyone excited....

Can carry Brimstone, CAMM with a E/O sensor or Brimstone Dual Mode seeker.

And ground launched Meteor....what ever that is or does.

Exactor replacement, Long Range ATGM overwatch anyone?

I should add would a CAMM anti armour variant need a warhead? Kinetic Energy penetration alone should be colossal at the speed it goes at...


Little J
Member
Posts: 484
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Little J » 19 Sep 2018, 22:44

Lord Jim wrote:I think that is being a bit unfair on the Army. Yes their plans are confused but they are being asked to de more than at any other time with far less resources, funding is not secured to any extent to allow old and obsolete equipment to be replaced or even effectively modernised. The programmes that are in going have their funding fluctuate year on year and are forced to slow down to a crawl as other priorities arise with no new money. Army 2020 was an attempt to square the circle and ended up actually meeting none of the aspirations effectively. The Ten year equipment plans are an attempt to improve things but the majority of the funding has to be underpinned by efficiency savings, something the Treasury seems to think are infinite. With funding so tight the Army is overly cautious about those programmes that are moving forward and is desperate to future proof them. The delays and lack of momentum mean these programmes are also overtaken by changes in requirement leading to changes in specification and design. What should happen core example is a core "Vanilla" design should be approved and procured in a swift manner that meets say 75 to 80 percent of the Army's requirements. Once in service then it can be improved over time to cover requirements as they materialise. Unfortunately for the Army the indecision and changing of requirements means nothing actually gets delivered within the planned timeframe if at all.


I know it's all politics', but I would like to see a defence chief stand up and say "no, can't be done" or "this is wasting time and money - this is a better option (in the long term)".

What??? I can day dream can't I !?! :crazy:


Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 20 Sep 2018, 05:52

Little J wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I think that is being a bit unfair on the Army. Yes their plans are confused but they are being asked to de more than at any other time with far less resources, funding is not secured to any extent to allow old and obsolete equipment to be replaced or even effectively modernised. The programmes that are in going have their funding fluctuate year on year and are forced to slow down to a crawl as other priorities arise with no new money. Army 2020 was an attempt to square the circle and ended up actually meeting none of the aspirations effectively. The Ten year equipment plans are an attempt to improve things but the majority of the funding has to be underpinned by efficiency savings, something the Treasury seems to think are infinite. With funding so tight the Army is overly cautious about those programmes that are moving forward and is desperate to future proof them. The delays and lack of momentum mean these programmes are also overtaken by changes in requirement leading to changes in specification and design. What should happen core example is a core "Vanilla" design should be approved and procured in a swift manner that meets say 75 to 80 percent of the Army's requirements. Once in service then it can be improved over time to cover requirements as they materialise. Unfortunately for the Army the indecision and changing of requirements means nothing actually gets delivered within the planned timeframe if at all.


I know it's all politics', but I would like to see a defence chief stand up and say "no, can't be done" or "this is wasting time and money - this is a better option (in the long term)".

What??? I can day dream can't I !?! :crazy:


Of course you can dream as with so many top brass in all three services an officer can always be replaced by his political master if he doesn't tow the line. The only thing that affects politicians is the electorate and if something can prevent them form continuing to enjoy the "Gravy Train", that is politics in this country.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8001
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Sep 2018, 05:57

I sense some new energy in the new minister's address (he had obviously been given some bullet points, but managed to keep it all in plain English). And what are all these things?
" we’re investing in sophisticated systems like Defence Targeting Toolset (DTT).

By allowing users…whether based in theatre or back in the UK…to see exactly the same thing…this remarkable piece of software enables Military Targeteers to co-ordinate Land and Air strikes against enemy targets more effectively…improving the speed and accuracy of decision making in complex targeting situations.

In addition, we’re introducing several new projects

We’re creating a Next Generation Weapon Locating System (NGWLS) that will sustain our capability to detect, acquire, track and assess current and future Land Environment indirect fire threats.

And we’re bringing in new Mobile Fires Platform (MFP) that provide our Army with a 155mm artillery capability…embracing 21st century technology…capable of supporting both Divisional deep fight and Strike. Repurposing old kit"
- there's also a hint that the first batches of JPTVs are going to the Strike bdes; logical as they will need protection also in the "rear" if they operating, as stated, in a distributed fashion

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 20 Sep 2018, 17:47

ArmChairCivvy wrote:And we’re bringing in new Mobile Fires Platform (MFP) that provide our Army with a 155mm artillery capability…embracing 21st century technology…capable of supporting both Divisional deep fight and Strike. Repurposing old kit"


The last bit was a misreading of his speech by the minister. The next section was talking abut repurposing and he read it too soon by mistake.

My guess for MFP is a small order for the French Caesar artillery system. The BA have been trialing it for ever.


Return to “British Army”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests