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British Army Future Wheeled APC

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
RunningStrong
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RunningStrong » 11 May 2018, 23:48

Lord Jim wrote:Would the VAB Mk3 be an option for the MRV(P) 6x6 I wonder?

Bit late, trials are already ongoing.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Frenchie » 20 Jul 2018, 21:44

From French sources the MoD could buy 1,500 Boxer over 24 years for an amount of about 13 billion euros, I do not know if this information is true but the site is serious.

http://forcesoperations.com/la-defense-britannique-pourrait-allonger-les-milliards-pour-ses-boxer/

And I have a link on a beginning of Shephard Media article.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/uk-mod-could-inject-115bn-more-armoured-vehicles/

I do not know if you talk about it elsewhere on the forum, otherwise sorry to have traced the subject, in any case I hope it's true.

RunningStrong
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RunningStrong » 20 Jul 2018, 23:09

Is that increased figure due to WCSP being in hot water? Perhaps the Army are willing to let WCSP die if it means they get greater MIV numbers. Heck of a gamble.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jul 2018, 01:12

Frenchie wrote:From French sources the MoD could buy 1,500 Boxer over 24 years for an amount of about 13 billion euros, I do not know if this information is true but the site is serious.

http://forcesoperations.com/la-defense-britannique-pourrait-allonger-les-milliards-pour-ses-boxer/

It's absolutely true, it went up on official potential to buy sources in the UK.

https://ted.europa.eu/TED/notice/udl?ur ... HTML&src=0

In short:

Order is aimed to be for 400-600, with an option for a further 900.

As Gabriel pointed out on twitter, that 900 is very likely to be an "If Warrior/Warrior Support Vehicle is scrapped" option, rather than a first planned move.

4 variants mentioned. Again as per Gabriel, likely to be APC, Command, Repair, Recovery.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jul 2018, 04:43

Frenchie wrote:the MoD could buy 1,500 Boxer over 24 years

+
RunningStrong wrote:Perhaps the Army are willing to let WCSP die if it means they get greater MIV numbers


Add a "Fallonism" in here (when asked about the plans for armour): "And Warrior... it is, errr, complicated" :shh:

So' from the 3000 FRES we will be down to 2000 Ajax+MIV... not bad, considering how much the Army has shrunk by in the meanwhile, but:

RetroSicotte wrote: likely to be APC, Command, Repair, Recovery

where is the fighty bit? The (few in number) MBTs will turn - without having tracked AI in support - into:
A. Infantry support tanks (like we had the Matildas :) ), or
B. "Dead ducks" operating on their own
Anyway, it looks like we are ending up with mechanised infantry only. All in the name of "deployability" :(
- I don't think we need to go anywhere as far as Afghanistan "the next time"

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Jul 2018, 10:07

The French have shown the AI do not need to be in a tracked platform, they do however need to be in a platform with a modicum of firepower greater than a 50 cal.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 21 Jul 2018, 13:21

Excellent move in my opinion, for whatever it is worth. It would assuredly mean additional variants as well. Note how the tender mentions the four variants are part of an "initial" procurement.

Best of all, it would mean some real coherency returning to the army's planning. Not to mention, i also think that this would better suit our actual strategic requirement if we were to evaluate it in the cold light of day.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jul 2018, 14:20

Lord Jim wrote:The French have shown the AI do not need to be in a tracked platform


Where/ how, exactly, have they shown that?
- I was about to write a piece about the US/ Russian thinking on this (how to balance the force... but then "China" got in my way. As they have fitted out a bde size force, which has consistently beaten all their other units on exercises. That one bde simulating the capabilities of a US one... and now they want to follow suit; will take 10-12 years

Lord Jim wrote:they do however need to be in a platform with a modicum of firepower greater than a 50 cal

- agreed

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote: the tender mentions the four variants are part of an "initial" procurement.

- reasonable; not all 1500 will be tendered in one round

RunningStrong
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RunningStrong » 21 Jul 2018, 15:40

Lord Jim wrote:The French have shown the AI do not need to be in a tracked platform, they do however need to be in a platform with a modicum of firepower greater than a 50 cal.

Well we've already bought the warrior CT40 cannons!

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Frenchie » 21 Jul 2018, 22:18

The article in French speaks of a first batch of vehicles being delivered between 2021 and 2023. According to the article, the specialist Nicholas Drummond imagines that they will be heavily armed: a gun of 30mm of the type of the Apache helicopter, mounted on a teleoperated turret and a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher and a 12.7mm machine gun. Drummond even hopes that the MoD will place an additional order of half a thousand vehicles to form reconnaissance Boxer regiments equipped with 40 CTAS guns, others Boxer equipped with a 155mm artillery gun, mortar and British observers speak of a 105 or 120 mm gun, still according to the article in French.

Deleted Ajax and Warrior, only Boxer :?:

RetroSicotte
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jul 2018, 22:27

Nicholas, for all his great writings, is basically a twitter commenter, no additional source that I am aware of.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Gabriele » 21 Jul 2018, 22:33

Nicholas is a good man, but he tends to make it sound like his hopes are actual plans, when they are not.

Ajax cancellation at this stage is highly unlikely; i don't think the MOD could wiggle out of the contract, and the backlash from Wales would be huge, too. Warrior CSP cancellation, on the other hand, is looking more and more likely.

I've just put online a post where i try to explain the current status of things: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... eeled.html
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

RunningStrong
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RunningStrong » 21 Jul 2018, 23:06

Gabriele wrote:, and the backlash from Wales would be huge, too.

I think you vastly overestimate how much Westminster gives a flying £&£@ about Wales going by recent actions.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby dmereifield » 21 Jul 2018, 23:34

RunningStrong wrote:
Gabriele wrote:, and the backlash from Wales would be huge, too.

I think you vastly overestimate how much Westminster gives a flying £&£@ about Wales going by recent actions.


Off topic, I don't think this Government is anti-Wales, they manage to f@ck everything up across the board, incapable of making even the simplest and moat sensible of decisions, let alone delivering on them. They also don't seem too bothered about sticking to their commitments (manifesto, or otherwise).
In short, they're not singling out the Welsh, their just as crappy for the rest of us....
(rant over, sorry, made me feel better)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Jul 2018, 02:14

Frenchie wrote:The article in French speaks of a first batch of vehicles being delivered between 2021 and 2023. According to the article, the specialist Nicholas Drummond imagines that they will be heavily armed: a gun of 30mm of the type of the Apache helicopter, mounted on a teleoperated turret and a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher and a 12.7mm machine gun. Drummond even hopes that the MoD will place an additional order of half a thousand vehicles to form reconnaissance Boxer regiments equipped with 40 CTAS guns, others Boxer equipped with a 155mm artillery gun, mortar and British observers speak of a 105 or 120 mm gun, still according to the article in French.

Deleted Ajax and Warrior, only Boxer :?:


Well if by some small chance this were to happen I would be very happy, as going down the MIV/Boxer route and canning Warrior and some or all of the Ajax was something I have suggested as an option. Will it happen I doubt it, at least with Ajax, but we could see a properly organised and equipped "Medium" force consisting of Boxer variants, and the Ajax going back to its role of Reece in the AI Brigades and maybe a Regiment at Divisional level. I suppose cancelling the Warrior upgrade production contract together with the BASV programme in a short term option the MoD may be able to live with and would free up some funding for other programmes seen as together priority.

As for the French, they seem very happy with the benefits the VBCI has brought to their Armoured/Mechanised Infantry over the AMX-10P. It may be that the MoD or at least part of it, realised that they cannot afford to maintain "Legacy" heavy formations and also develop a medium capability. As stated at the beginning this all seem conjecture but I think it would be going in the right direct.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Jul 2018, 06:14

RunningStrong wrote:Well we've already bought the warrior CT40 cannons!

... and I placed a bet, long ago, as to where they will end up;
Frenchie wrote: form reconnaissance Boxer regiments equipped with 40 CTAS guns


As Gab points out, I doubt this is the plan, but it is a bloody good idea:
Frenchie wrote: a gun of 30mm of the type of the Apache helicopter, mounted on a teleoperated turret and a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher and a 12.7mm machine gun. Drummond even hopes that the MoD will place an additional order of half a thousand vehicles to form reconnaissance Boxer regiments equipped with 40 CTAS guns

- the recce formations (of whatever size) need to be able to look after themselves
- as for suppression fire, in support of AI (or mech. such) the Apache gun is better, exc. that a 30 mm will not deliver (effective, or any) AB; also having Javelins on vehicles gives a better response time, even if it is of the "one-shot" type often sported on concepts - the "reloads" will be those that the dismounts carry, given the chance to dismount!
- and for light formations, the same gun has already been proposed for the USMC, mounted on the same type of armoured jeep that we will be buying scores (sale of Joint Light Tactical Vehicles to the United Kingdom for an estimated cost of $1.04 billion) of. Ours will come with B-kit armour... I wonder what the "A" class would provide?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 22 Jul 2018, 16:44

You folks need to look at the 30mmgun you are talking about. It's one of the weakest 30mm around. Low energy, short range, fan boi weapon.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Jul 2018, 17:47

Ron5 wrote:Low energy


We've been here before, the gun that can be made to work both on an airframe and on the ground:
" The Molins Gun in the Mosquito FB Mk XVIII was tested in the USA in 1945, in comparison with the nearest U.S. equivalent, the manually-loaded 75mm AN-Mk 5 in the PBJ-1H. This comparison was more valid than the difference in calibre might suggest, for the 75x350R ammunition used in the American gun (the same as was used by the M4 tank gun in the Sherman) was about the same overall size as the 57x441R, and the 6 pdr and 75mm tank guns were effectively interchangeable in the later British tanks.

The Molins Gun impressed the Americans with its performance and reliability and was considered superior to the 75mm as it could achieve a much higher rate-of-fire"

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Jul 2018, 18:33

One thing is for sure these days, there is an auto cannon available these days to meet any budget and requirements. You just have to pick the one that is right for you, hopefully. Although the UK had invested heavily in the CTA 40, like the French we shouldn't be wedded to it to equip possible turret for the Boxer Infantry carrier. There are quite a few unmanned turrets containing anything from a 20mm up to a 35mm already available, with or without ATGM. For a Recce version simply taking the Ajax Turret would be an option, and the number of dismounts is not an issue.

In Fact given the issues with the MDP and the stage many of the Army's procurement programmes are at, taking a step back may be what is needed as far as the future size and shape of the AFV fleet is concerned.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 22 Jul 2018, 18:48

Ron5 wrote:You folks need to look at the 30mmgun you are talking about. It's one of the weakest 30mm around. Low energy, short range, fan boi weapon.


Now try comparing it to the M2 RWS .50 cal.
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1: Ineffective moderators
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 22 Jul 2018, 19:55

arfah wrote:
Ron5 wrote:You folks need to look at the 30mmgun you are talking about. It's one of the weakest 30mm around. Low energy, short range, fan boi weapon.


Now try comparing it to the M2 RWS .50 cal.


How many shells of each can you carry in a JLTV?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby mr.fred » 22 Jul 2018, 20:00

It’s about the same length, but the 30mm is 50% larger diameter, so you’d get a little more than twice as many .50 BMG rounds

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Ron5 » 22 Jul 2018, 20:11

mr.fred wrote:It’s about the same length, but the 30mm is 50% larger diameter, so you’d get a little more than twice as many .50 BMG rounds


Why don't you find out instead of guessing?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Jul 2018, 20:33

If you start sticking 30mm on 4x4s even if they are lightly armoured, somebody will always decide that are true AFVs and start using them as such.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 22 Jul 2018, 21:22

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Ours will come with B-kit armour... I wonder what the "A" class would provide?

The "A" kit is the baseline level of protection that every vehicle rolls off the factory floor with, to my knowledge. The "B" kit is the up-armouring package that is offered for the vehicle.

No doubt, in UK service, our B kits will differ slightly from the original versions. We've already seen one at DSEI sporting an anti-RPG nets which, to my understanding, are not part of the usual B kit offering. Not to mention we tend to have a habit of "improving" the armour packages that can be applied to our US built vehicles.

That said, in this particular case, i can't see us making too many changes. A few UK specific things here and there (like the RPG nets for example), but nothing that diverges too much from the standard version.


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