Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

[ArmChairCivvy]

The first Strike Brigade, which will utilise a mix of Ajax and MIV vehicles, is expected to achieve IOC in 2023.

It is quite normal for different sources to clash, but it was only recently stated (by the same primary source) that SEG would convert to a Bde format in 2019, the second Bde being due for 2023? With what vehicles... that was not stated

and Finland’s Patria

BAE's stealth card to get back into the game
- since when is GD Spanish? Ref:
GD Land Systems

Corporate Headquarters:
38500 Mound Road
Sterling Heights, MI 48310
United States

Facts:

Our UK operation is delivering the British Army’s AJAX armored fighting vehicles, with six variants.
GD acquired Land Systems’ Canadian operations in 2003, bringing a heritage for the building LAVs which dates back to the 1970s.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Strike Brigade, which will utilise a mix of Ajax and MIV vehicles

May be going back in time (OK, a pair of wheels have been added along the way) could explain the disappearance act of the Ajax Overwatch version? http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... s/new1.jpg

[ArmChairCivvy]

Strike Bdes often get the attributes net-centric and full spectrum attached. The latter we can discount as being drawn out of the hat with an equal probability to the other, with no meaning, "balanced force" description.

However, the Boxer not suddenly being "a done deal" anymore may have something to do with this (and net-centric); the news piece from April that did not get much attention:
"General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited has been awarded a £330 million contract from the UK Ministry of Defence to design and develop the next-generation tactical communication and information system as the initial phase of the MORPHEUS programme. The system will be used to plan, deploy, manage and monitor communications and information for the Army. It will allow users to integrate new radios, applications and other system components faster and with greater ease.

General Dynamics will implement a new architectural approach, known as Evolve to Open (EvO), which will evolve the Bowman tactical communication (BCIP 5.6) capability into an open, modular system. The system will connect deployed tactical forces to their commanders, give improved access to powerful operational IT and simplify the user experience. The open system approach allows new technologies to be rapidly integrated to tackle emerging threats and enhance interoperability with allies.

[...]

Chief Operating Officer of General Dynamics UK, Steve Rowbotham, commented:

“Having delivered and supported the Bowman tactical communication and information system for the past 15 years from our site in South Wales, this contract marks the next chapter in our history. We are delighted that we will continue to develop and grow our existing employee skills base, whilst providing the UK Armed Forces with a leading edge battlefield communication system.”

The contract creates 125 new jobs as well as sustaining the jobs of 125 highly-skilled engineers at General Dynamics UK’s headquarters in Oakdale, South Wales."

Quite a complex emerging from Oakdale plus the near-by Ajax factory (Piranha V, anybody... easy to arrange for a Prime that would carry all the risk of integration...and thereby defend another big single source contract? Presumably making the prgrm run faster and smoother?).
- the quoted "jobs" come close to half of what has been quoted for Ajax (, which is a longer prgrm though)

A "fair deal" emerging:
- Scotland gets ships and boats
- Wales gets land
- England gets air

[Smokey]

Northern Ireland gets missiles?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Northern Ireland gets missiles?

It iis now down to Mrs. May's negotiating skills... otherwise bullet trains will have to suffice

[Ron5]

Isle of Wight gets radars

[mr.fred]

General Dynamics European Land Systems is headquartered in Spain:
General Dynamics European Land Systems
Headquarters

P.E. Cristalia Edificio 7/8
C/Vía de los Poblados, 3
28033 Madrid, Spain

[Gabriele]

And Ajax is based on ASCOD, which is an evolution of the spanish-austrian Pizarro / Ulan. That's why the first 100 Ajax come from Spain.

[ArmChairCivvy]

General Dynamics European Land Systems is headquartered in Spain:
General Dynamics European Land Systems
Headquarters

P.E. Cristalia Edificio 7/8
C/Vía de los Poblados, 3
28033 Madrid, Spain

That's like saying that, e.g Citibank having a regional HQ for Europe in London... makes it The HQ

[ArmChairCivvy]

That's why the first 100 Ajax come from Spain

Shall we exercise majority voting here: where will the rest of them come from?

[Gabriele]

Even then it is assembly, not production, but certainly better than nothing. Still, the ASCOD SV "british to its bootstraps" as GD's propoganda said when it was time to get the contract is a Spain hull with a german-derivative turret (Lance body by Rheinmetall, then assembled and kitted out by LM in the UK) with a german powerpack. Assembly in Wales was an afterthought at project well underway and occupation levels are a far cry from what was promised.

Other than that, a triumph... oh, no. I was forgetting that the Army changed its mind less than a year after contract award and now will put Ajax into otherwise-wheeled brigades because MIV is just an APC and they have nothing else in the general weight range to provide some firepower with.

Yeah, success, i guess...

[Lord Jim]

How much additional cost is added to programmes like MIV and Ajax just to get a token number of jobs in the UK for doing the final valet on the vehicles? When will the Government admit the UK is out of the AFV building business except for limited numbers of specialised vehicles. Anything spent on the above should be paid by either DfiD of DWP as they bring no benefit to the Armed Forces, in fact the opposite.

[ArmChairCivvy]

bring no benefit to the Armed Forces, in fact the opposite.

The ability to upgrade/ modify the AFVs through their long-ish lives?

[StrategyTed]

The reason I ask the question about "The return of Boxer" is even though an MIV programme seems imminent, We have the tender going out for the FPFBA Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance Programme. Surely you wouldn't spend a wad of budget on two separate programmes when the likes of the Netherlands have Ambulances as one of the variants of their Boxer vehicles I believe they have 52.

[ArmChairCivvy]

We have the tender going out for the FPFBA Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance Programme. Surely you wouldn't spend a wad of budget on two separate programmes

What if you can hit the requirement for one with a quarter of the (unit) cost needed to satisfy the other? Just playing Devil's advocate here

[StrategyTed]

You do raise a good point, but I think they would have to take into consideration streamlining the amount of vehicle platforms. Adding another vehicle means another stream of support, separate parts, future obsolescence and so forth. I wont mention my feelings on AJAX when you cant fly the thing because it too heavy no to mention the fuel it uses.

[Gabriele]

The reason I ask the question about "The return of Boxer" is even though an MIV programme seems imminent, We have the tender going out for the FPFBA Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance Programme. Surely you wouldn't spend a wad of budget on two separate programmes when the likes of the Netherlands have Ambulances as one of the variants of their Boxer vehicles I believe they have 52.

You do need an armoured ambulance that does not weight 30+ tons, however. A MIV-based ambulance is good for frontline use in the MIV brigades and maybe even in the armoured ones (anything to finally replace the FV432...), but any lighter formation, or the rear echelon, need something that is not an unprotected Land Rover but that does not come with that massive bulk.

[mr.fred]

That's like saying that, e.g Citibank having a regional HQ for Europe in London... makes it The HQ

I wouldn't know about Citibank, but the Spanish HQ, Ex- Santa Barbara Sistemas, is the headquarters and main manufacturing facility of the European arm of GD. Given US export laws regarding defense equipment it will be substantially independent and contracts for something like Piranha V (ex Mowag, Swiss) will go through the Spanish HQ.

Looking the other way, contracts for BAESystems in the US are likely to stay within that continent.

[Lord Jim]

We do not need industry to upgrade and maintain our AFV fleet, but rather take a step back and do the work in house. Certainly a partnership would be valid but a central workshop would work, similar to how the RAF do maintenance these days. I am just concerned that having Contractors set up final assembly plants every time a contract is awarded, just to tick the box marked "Made in United Kingdom" is an expense we cannot afford considering the few real benefits involved. Key point though is that the MoD's commercial branch must ensure we have access to the IPR to ensure we can do the work in house and that any cost involved is LESS than would be involved in setting up a assembly plant. As long as the IPR is for own use only the cost is usually minimal, and it is a bit of a buyers market in Europe at the moment so we should have leverage.

[Lord Jim]

Isn't the MRV(P) going to cover the Ambulance role in lighter units? I thought it was replacing the Landrover in this as well as many other roles.

[RunningStrong]

General Dynamics European Land Systems is headquartered in Spain:
General Dynamics European Land Systems
Headquarters

P.E. Cristalia Edificio 7/8
C/Vía de los Poblados, 3
28033 Madrid, Spain

General Dynamics Land Systems UK does not report to GD ELS. It reports to GD LS Canada.

Even then it is assembly, not production, but certainly better than nothing. Still, the ASCOD SV "british to its bootstraps" as GD's propoganda said when it was time to get the contract is a Spain hull with a german-derivative turret (Lance body by Rheinmetall, then assembled and kitted out by LM in the UK) with a german powerpack. Assembly in Wales was an afterthought at project well underway and occupation levels are a far cry from what was promised.

Other than that, a triumph... oh, no. I was forgetting that the Army changed its mind less than a year after contract award and now will put Ajax into otherwise-wheeled brigades because MIV is just an APC and they have nothing else in the general weight range to provide some firepower with.

Yeah, success, i guess...

It would have inevitability been cheaper to build the vehicles at an already established production facility, that should be obvious to anyone and clear to anyone that is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK.

I think you put too much weight in the metal work associated with these platforms. The "systems" Installation on AJAX is huge, and the production of these components from processors, to sights and power systems, as well harness manufacturers and glassware is dependent on an extensive UK supply chain.

British to the bootstraps? No. But you can't understate the British manufacturing capability on this platform.

[ArmChairCivvy]

take a step back and do the work in house.

That was the plan with GD/ Ajax originally and why that was reversed (in fact, several times, ending with the assembly plant in Wales) is unclear to me.

anyone that is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK.

Well, BAE did a good job with that, after playing politics with British jobs in the CV90 case, which then blew spectacularly on their face(s).

[mr.fred]

General Dynamics Land Systems UK does not report to GD ELS. It reports to GD LS Canada.

But it's GD ELS who makes and sells the Piranha V. GD LS Canada licenses the Piranha III from GD ELS and has made modifications via the Stryker programme to make the LAV 6. Which isn't being put forward so Spain it is.

It would have inevitability been cheaper to build the vehicles at an already established production facility, that should be obvious to anyone and clear to anyone that is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK.

I don't know. I think anyone "who is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK" is wrong. Might I suggest searching for:
Pearson Engineering
MTL Advanced
William Cook

They've all been in the news recently

I think you put too much weight in the metal work associated with these platforms. The "systems" Installation on AJAX is huge, and the production of these components from processors, to sights and power systems, as well harness manufacturers and glassware is dependent on an extensive UK supply chain.

British to the bootstraps? No. But you can't understate the British manufacturing capability on this platform.

I agree. Breaking an AFV down by value gives a very different picture to splitting by weight, and there are plenty of British-based (though often not British-owned) companies involved in the production of these system components.

[ArmChairCivvy]

But it's GD ELS who makes and sells the Piranha V

They've offered to give it "the Wales" treatment, should they win. No mention if the first hundred would again (as hulls) come from Spain.

Do you think these synergies will give GD an edge? ""General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited has been awarded a £330 million contract from the UK Ministry of Defence to design and develop the next-generation tactical communication and information system as the initial phase of the MORPHEUS programme. The system will be used to plan, deploy, manage and monitor communications and information for the Army. It will allow users to integrate new radios, applications and other system components faster and with greater ease.

[RunningStrong]

General Dynamics Land Systems UK does not report to GD ELS. It reports to GD LS Canada.

But it's GD ELS who makes and sells the Piranha V. GD LS Canada licenses the Piranha III from GD ELS and has made modifications via the Stryker programme to make the LAV 6. Which isn't being put forward so Spain it is.

It's not GD ELS selling the vehicle to MOD, it's GD UK. And Piranha comes from the old Mowag site, not SBS.

It would have inevitability been cheaper to build the vehicles at an already established production facility, that should be obvious to anyone and clear to anyone that is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK.

I don't know. I think anyone "who is aware of the lack of facilities still standing in the UK" is wrong. Might I suggest searching for:
Pearson Engineering
MTL Advanced
William Cook

They've all been in the news recently

Which is just like the fact no UK companies producing Armour-grade steels like Armox. You're not comparing like-for-like.

And that's not a slight at any of those companies, but they have a significant capability gap compared to what is available at GD ELS and RLS. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but the British (and Welsh) government weren't going to stretch to that.