Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414
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Re: Only heavy and light; where did Medium disappear to? Or did we get Medium-heavy and Light-medium

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:I am now looking at the GM Eagle in both its 4x4 and 6x6 versions as the best option for the whole MRV(P) requirement. I think the JLTV is too big and too specialised, really being aimed at past requirement raised during the was in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Eagle seems a much more suitable platform and quite a few other countries seem to agree.
Cost will have something to do with it Eagle V is 812,000 dollars where JLTV is 465, 000 dollars so if we buy say 1000 vehicles Eagle V would cost 812 million dollars and JLTV would be 465 million dollars making it 347 million dollars cheaper with that money we could buy 290 Griffon 6x6.

and when talking money for the 50 Boxer CVR we could around 200 Jaguar CVR

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Re: Only heavy and light; where did Medium disappear to? Or did we get Medium-heavy and Light-medium

Post by Lord Jim »

Is the Eagle V the 4x4 or the 6x6 variant?

Are you sure of the price differential between the Boxer CVR and the Jaguar CVR. I know the former is better protected and has greater mobility and load carrying capacity with the option of six dismounts but four times the price seems a bit strange given the amount of high end equipment on the Jaguar and this is where the majority of costs arise from?

But if those prices are correct then we should equip the two Light BCTs with both Jaguar and Griffin and scrap the MRV(P) as it currently stands. This also uses up some of the remaining CTA 40mm auto cannons

Then we just have to buy some Light Utility Vehicles, like those the US Army is purchasing for its Light Infantry, able to carry six Infantrymen, and that can be transported inside of Chinook along with more UGVs to allow 16AA BCT to be more mobile when not being ferried around by Helicopter, especially when it comes to their heavy weapons. :D

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree that the RA/RHA should keep the main responsibility for air defence which is why I organised the Boxer SPAA platforms into such Regiments which would then be taken form the Support Pool and allocated to a Combat Team when it deployed operationally if required.

From what I have read Starstreak is also pretty effective against UAVs at low to medium level and the same Guidance Unit could also be used to fire LMM which should be even more effective, and which has been fired from the three round pedestal launcher or Light Weight Multiple Launch (LML) already. In fact there is no reason why at Platoon level there could not be a MANPADS Team with a LML, therefore having the option to either fire from the shoulder or if time allows from the LML. There is a pedestal mounted version of the Air Defence Acquisition Device (ADAD) systems for use with the LML already in service and this could easily be carried in the Boxer as well.

It should be possible to network both the Boxer SPAA platforms and the LML teams into an integrated sensor net together with Sky Sabre and other assets. At least one would hope such a system is already under development if all the talk of "Sunrise" capabilities is real.

Ideally any major deployment against a peer or near peer opponent should be protected by a layered Air Defence network ranging from Starstreak LML up to SAMP-T, something we have never had even though the need has been there for decades.

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Re: Only heavy and light; where did Medium disappear to? Or did we get Medium-heavy and Light-medium

Post by SW1 »

It’s a gd question about medium. The mantra for its need over the last 20 years has been around its deployability advantage. I guess though when the vehicles you ordered for it are now all touching the scales at around 40 tonnes you can only describe them as heavy.

The strike concept I’ve read remains how the army will fight, it was all about fighting in a more dispersed and spread out manner rather than a vehicle type.

It remains to be seen how the heavy brigade combat teams will be set up. Will they follow US formation of combined arms battalion and mechanised battalions or something else. But the question is how does these units get from the UK to Eastern Europe and in what timescales.

As for the light brigade combat teams there very like the US infantry brigade combat teams. The US appear to be dealing with a similar issue to us in that it’s unlikely infantry on foot have much mobility or relevance on a future battlefield and as such are looking at a variety of light vehicles to put them in.

At least here we have it would appear something in mind in that we’re told one will already be equipped with jacket and foxhound to form a light mechanised brigade hopefully the second brigade will follow along similar lines. The question of what equips the airborne brigade will be interesting thought it could be similar vehicles or supracat lrv.

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Re: Only heavy and light; where did Medium disappear to? Or did we get Medium-heavy and Light-medium

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:Is the Eagle V the 4x4 or the 6x6 variant?

Are you sure of the price differential between the Boxer CVR and the Jaguar CVR. I know the former is better protected and has greater mobility and load carrying capacity with the option of six dismounts but four times the price seems a bit strange given the amount of high end equipment on the Jaguar and this is where the majority of costs arise from?

But if those prices are correct then we should equip the two Light BCTs with both Jaguar and Griffin and scrap the MRV(P) as it currently stands. This also uses up some of the remaining CTA 40mm auto cannons

Then we just have to buy some Light Utility Vehicles, like those the US Army is purchasing for its Light Infantry, able to carry six Infantrymen, and that can be transported inside of Chinook along with more UGVs to allow 16AA BCT to be more mobile when not being ferried around by Helicopter, especially when it comes to their heavy weapons. :D
From what I can make out our Boxer order of 528 for 2.3 billion = 4.2 million each and this is not for the CVR but the APC.

The cost of 812,000 for Eagle V is based on the 4x4 with the Danish order with all there kit fitted coming in at 970,000 dollars each vehicle.

As for Griffon and Jaguar the Fixed contact is set at 1 million Euros each and Griffon , Jaguar and Boxer come with STANAG 4569 Leave 4 armour however Boxer comes in at 38 ton and Griffon / Jaguar at 25 tons

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote: Alternatively there is Rheinmetall's Sky Ranger turret mounting a 35mm revolver type auto cannon.
Recently RM announced a 30mm Skyranger turret that seems to be more Boxer sized.

Image

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/rheinmetall- ... yranger-30

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Sounds like a super shotgun
"Another key feature of the Skyranger 30 is the elevation, which can reach 85°, allowing engaging threats during their terminal dive. One key element in increasing the kill probability is the ABM round; leveraging the experience acquired with the 35 mm AHEAD ammunition the new 30 mm ABM round carries a total of around 160 tungsten cylinders for a total payload of around 200 grams. The concept is the same of the AHEAD: once the fire control system has established the intercept point, the ABM round leaves the muzzle being time-programmed to open up at the optimal distance in front of the target generating a lethal cone of high-strength metallic cylinders."
- loses a third of the range by going down from 35mm, but presumably quite a few more rounds can be carried
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Ron5 wrote:Recently RM announced a 30mm Skyranger turret that seems to be more Boxer sized.
Well that fits the bill quite nicely, and could also carry a couple of either Starstreak or LMM as well, just gets better and better.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:As for the light brigade combat teams there very like the US infantry brigade combat teams. The US appear to be dealing with a similar issue to us in that it’s unlikely infantry on foot have much mobility or relevance on a future battlefield and as such are looking at a variety of light vehicles to put them in.

At least here we have it would appear something in mind in that we’re told one will already be equipped with jacket and foxhound to form a light mechanised brigade hopefully the second brigade will follow along similar lines.
The Armchair Soldier wrote:Merging this topic into the one for Boxer as it mostly relates to it.
A pity as Boxers will (initially) appear in two BCTs - which is a super minority.

We were just edging closer to the answer as to "WHO will get the hand-me-downs"?

Of course (mainly) the other Light BCT, the one where cavalry Jackal/ protected mobility Foxhound was not specified... indeed NOTHING was specified. Not one word; to avoid embarrassment as what has been listed many times over for disposal will keep soldiering on - for most of this decade :idea: .
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

I am hoping that the second Light BCT will be equipped with variants of the MRV(P) programme as and when they are delivered, eventually the same should happen to the first, but that will have to make do with the Jackals and Foxhounds as mentioned in order to stand up sooner.
The second will either have hand me downs that have had a stay of execution or will be light role infantry awaiting its new mounts.

If this means that resources are going to be concentrated on the two Heavy BCTs then I would be happy with that, because they need them to create viable formations as a matter of urgency. It is these formations that will provide an land based deterrence by the their presence together with the Deep Strike BCT.

ACC mentioned three papers have been released, could someone link me to what came after the Command Paper if anything?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

so Lets say with the move to BCT's we had two heavy Mechanised BCT's with Boxer + two medium mechanised BCT's with Jaguar and Griffon and two light mechanised BCT's with JLTV and Bushmaster

I would say we would need an extra 500 Boxer's with 200 with the 40mm turret + 150 with the Skyranger 30 turret + 150 of other types cost 2 billion pounds

I would say the Medium BCT's would need 550 Griffon and 200 Jaguar cost 800 million pound

I would say the Light BCT's should get 300 JLTV and 250 Bushmaster 300 million pounds

Total cost 3.5 billion over 5 = 700 million per year

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SW1 »

I’d be hoping that the mrvp program is more future variants of foxhound and jackal.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote:I’d be hoping that the mrvp program is more future variants of foxhound and jackal.
I have to say I would like to see a 6X6 Foxhound with 8 dismounts and a RWS

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote:
SW1 wrote:I’d be hoping that the mrvp program is more future variants of foxhound and jackal.
I have to say I would like to see a 6X6 Foxhound with 8 dismounts and a RWS
It would probably be laying on its side :D

Personally. I'd like to see a 6x6 JLTV. Cheaper & tougher. Made/assembled in the UK with lotsa locally sourced parts.

Not much to ask although with all the UK automotive design expertise in the UK, a brand new 100% UK design would be trivial to develop. These vehicles are not complicated.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

https://www.army.mod.uk/media/11826/202 ... -final.pdf

This should logically be on the broader IR thread, but the request was on this one
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by bobp »

Another view of same...


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Not having to deploy stabilisers before firing could be a capability that moves this option up the list of replacements for the AS-90. Whether this would out way the additional cost, which again we have no way of knowing, is therefore anyone's guess. But the Drive Module for the Boxer will be being manufactures in the UK so again that may be a positive. Maybe a Regiment of both Archer/MAN and the Boxer RCH155 could be the way forward, together with a Regiment of upgrades M270 GMLRS and one with HIMARS.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by bobp »

I never realised until earlier today that the Boxer turret could rotate, I thought it was fixed.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ons-likely

Looks like there will be attempts to sell off the surplus CTA barrels. If true, not going on Boxer then. More to the point the Army spokesperson further adds "There are no current plans to commission Boxer into an armoured infantry role". What a complete sh** show.

Increasingly looks like I will be proven right and that Boxer will get a shoddy, low velocity gun on an RWS at best. Utter lunacy.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

The statement sort of contradicts itself saying on the one hand there is no intention of using the Boxer in the Armoured infantry roles, which suggests it will remain a "Battlefield Taxi", then it goes on to state the Army is looking into option to increase the lethality of the vehicle.

I think the Army doesn't yet know how it is going to use the Boxer. On the one hand it has on order the variants it believed it needed to create the Strike Brigades, but even then it had failed to order basic variants like a Mortar Carrier for the Mechanised Infantry Battalions. It was still conducting trials as to how to operate a wheeled APC in said Brigades and now these Battalions are to operate with the Challenger as part of the two Heavy Infantry BCTs.

The Army seems to think that going back to the 1970s idea of Heavy formations akin to the Chieftain Mk5 and the FV432 APC is the way forward because it has only ordered APCs at present. But nothing has been delivered yet and the beauty of the Boxer is that you can change which Mission Modules you want far more easily that orders totally new variants of a complete platform. yes more money would be involved, but if the Army wants the two Heavy BCTs to be viable combat formations that have a deterrent value if deployed, then it has to get both its man pants on and its thinking cap and equip these two formations as they actually need to be. If this involves delaying the creating of the two Light BCTs then so be it, even though there must be a temptation to stand up the latter first as it would be a great PR exercise to show how the Army was transforming.

No mention has been made of reducing the Ajax order yet which is concerning, as we only really need two Regiments worth plus enough of two Recce Troops for the Armoured Regiment and a number to replace some FV432 and CVR(T) variants in said Regiments. The total for this is less than half those on order, and time is running out to make any changes. We do not need Recce Regiments in the Heavy BCTs, what we do need is a minimum of three Infantry Battalions in both these and the Light BCTs.

The way the Army has postured itself after the Integrated Review is still the same dogs dinner it has been after the previous two review, it is trying to bang square pegs, its existing procurement plans, into round holes, the new force structure is aspiring to. To make matters worse, its much vaunted transformation is going to take such a long time those countries we see as a threat will probably not notice the changes, and these will be out of date by the time they are introduced anyway.

By 2025 we should have one Heavy and one Light BCT fully equipped and operational, including all the required support units and capabilities. In addition the Deep Strike/Recce BCT should also be stood up. All these formations should have their NEW kit when formed. The remaining heavy and Light BCTs should be stood up by 2028 as well as many of the additional support capabilities highlighted in the Integrated Review. Those "Sunrise" capabilities mentioned are not due until after 2030 and so although they need to be funded, there is no need to accelerate most of these as the technology required will no be mature until the next decade. There are also new equipment programmes that will also arise by the end of the decade like the replacement of the L85 Assault Rifle as well as the need to adopt new ATGWs. Programmes such as these must be funded at a high priority than the aspirational "Sunrise" capabilities.

Sorry this rant has gone slightly off topic but I needed to post it.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote: "There are no current plans to commission Boxer into an armoured infantry role".
Does that mean that post-Warrior there'll be no armoured infantry?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

RunningStrong wrote:
~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote: "There are no current plans to commission Boxer into an armoured infantry role".
Does that mean that post-Warrior there'll be no armoured infantry?
Certainly looks that way.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

No armoured infantry is a big cut in capability and if not put right someone will need to have their cock put in a vice and have it done up until it squeezes the right answer into their head

Right now we have on order 150 Challenger upgrades , 530 Boxer , 245 40mm Ajax Plus 344 Ares. So if we were stand up battalions of

20 x Ajax CVR
60 x APC ( each fitted with a RWS 20 x 12.7mm , 20 x 30mm and 20 x 40mm GMG )
20 x other types

this would allow the Battalion to have

2 x recce units of 4 x Ajax 40mm + 2 x Javelin
3 x Companies of 4 x Ajax 40mm + 2 x Javelin & x 20 APC's
1 x HQ of 4 x C&C
16 x other types ( which should include 9 Mortar carriers but these have not been ordered yet )

This could in turn allow for 2 x H- BCT's of

1 x Challenger regt
1 x Cavalry Company
3 x Mechanised infantry Battalion's ( as laid out above )
1 x Artillery support group

This is no replacement for a modern IFV but the 4 x Ajax and 20 RWS fitted APC's can bring more effective fire power to bear than today's Warrior when on the move

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