Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

[bobp]

RBSL awarded Boxer production contract at its plant in Telford creating jobs..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-55046013

[Ron5]

RBSL awarded Boxer production contract at its plant in Telford creating jobs..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-55046013

Excellent news!!

What the UK needs next is JLTV assembly with some local component manufacture.

[BlueD954]

RBSL awarded Boxer production contract at its plant in Telford creating jobs..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-55046013

Excellent news!!

What the UK needs next is JLTV assembly with some local component manufacture.

Not a full fan of JLTV but if that's the MRV-P Package 1 choice, it has to have its capabilities and much UK components.

[BlueD954]

Direct Boxer news releases

https://www.wfel.com/news/wfel-to-manuf ... k-mod/1022

Under the recently signed £2.3 billion contract between UK MoD and ARTEC - the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Rheinmetall consortium - a significant portion of the manufacture of the 500 Boxer Armoured Vehicles for the Army’s Strike Brigades will take place at KMW’s UK subsidiary, WFEL, creating a substantial number of jobs for both WFEL and its UK-wide supply chain.

The Boxer Mechanised Infantry Vehicle programme aims to source more than 60% by value of the vehicle content from UK suppliers and these 8 x 8 wheeled vehicles will be supplied in several different configurations, including an armoured personnel carrier, field ambulance, command vehicle and specialist carrier.Delivery of the vehicles is expected to start from 2023 and this order marks the return of the UK to a European Defence Programme, having taken part in the Boxer project while in its infancy. Boxer is now on its way to becoming one of NATO’s standard vehicles.

UK Defence Minister James Heappey said: “Investing in the Boxer programme is a prime example of Defence doing more than ever to level-up the UK economy through employment. By developing our relationship with WFEL, we are also supporting high-skilled jobs across the UK supply chain.

“This partnership ensures we engage with our people from the very beginning, connecting talented apprentices with the valuable roles Defence has to offer.”

As part of the preparations for this significant contract, WFEL has re-energised its Apprenticeship Scheme, with the first of its new Apprentice recruits recently joining the company to follow the path of Advanced Apprenticeships in Engineering Manufacture and keen to be involved in this 10-year contract.

As well as the on-going commitment to new Apprenticeships, WFEL is also actively recruiting for a substantial number of new roles to be based at its Stockport site, whilst engaging with both existing and new suppliers in anticipation of its contribution to both the North West economy and the Northern Powerhouse.

Ian Anderton, Managing Director of WFEL, said, “Our substantial involvement in the Boxer programme allows us to further develop our UK supply chain, in turn creating and protecting valuable UK engineering jobs and developing new skills for our staff and those of our supply chain partners. Working in close partnership with our KMW colleagues, we are both delighted and proud to be part of this transformational project for the British Army, with whom we have worked for many years.”

https://www.rbsl.com/news-and-events/ne ... -programme

Rheinmetall Landsysteme awards RBSL £860 million subcontract for UK MOD’s Mechanised Infantry Vehicle programme – more than 260 Boxer vehicles to be produced in Telford.

In a Group-internal transaction, Rheinmetall Landsysteme has awarded Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) a subcontract to manufacture more than 260 Boxer vehicles for the UK MOD’s Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV) programme. The Command and Special Carrier variants will be produced at RBSL’s facility in Telford, Shropshire.

The subcontract, worth about £860 million (€960 million), marks a significant milestone for the programme, following the £2.3 billion MIV contract awarded to ARTEC, the Rheinmetall and KMW consortium in December 2019.

The contract will create and sustain over 200 skilled jobs in and around Telford, with the complete programme creating and sustaining more than 1,000 jobs nationally. The award of this contract will allow RBSL to provide work and training opportunities to more than 60 apprentices over the next five years, which is anticipated to be replicated across the UK supply chain.

The MIV programme aims to source 60%, by value, of the contract from within the UK. In order to achieve this, RBSL is part of the MIV Joint Procurement Team, which has engaged with suppliers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The team has issued over 250 requests for quotations, and RBSL has completed numerous detailed supplier audits.

By working with a vibrant UK supply chain, the MIV programme will help support economic growth and level-up regional economic opportunity. The MIV programme aims to support and enhance the UK supply chain, including SMEs. It will also ensure that the UK has, in country, the skills and expertise to support the vehicles throughout their operational life.

Millions of pounds of investment will be made across British industry in training and capital equipment, increasing productivity throughout the supply chain. RBSL alone is making a £20 million investment in its Telford site to improve infrastructure, provide state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities, and deliver some of the highest standards of training for specialist capabilities, such as welding.

Defence Minister Jeremy Quin said:

“Investment in Defence is an investment into British industry and this Boxer contract will create and sustain thousands of skilled jobs throughout the country over its lifetime. Defence contracts like this at RBSL in Telford will modernise and upgrade our Armed Forces whilst helping the nation build back better from the Covid-19 pandemic.”

Dr Marco Nöding, RBSL Managing Director, said:

“RBSL’s subcontract is a great step forward after months of hard work. Working with Rheinmetall and other partners, RBSL is bringing new skills and technologies into the business and the UK supply chain.”

Dr Marco Noeding: “I feel proud that RBSL has the opportunity to support British industry by working with UK-based suppliers – especially given the extraordinary circumstances the UK faces as a result of COVID-19. The next step for us is to formalise our community of suppliers and ensure the British Army receives their new vehicles manufactured to the highest standards.”

The MIV programme

In November 2019, ARTEC, a joint venture between two German companies – Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann – signed the £2.3 billion contract to deliver 500+ Boxer vehicles to the British Army.

The vehicles will be manufactured in the UK, with production subcontracted equally between Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) and WFEL. The companies will undertake fabrication of the armoured vehicle structures together with assembly, integration and test of the complete vehicles at their respective facilities in Telford and Stockport.

The MIV contract will sustain jobs at RBSL and WFEL sites across the UK, as well as a vibrant national supply chain. The plan is to source more than 60%, by value, of the contract from within the UK, protecting the UK’s sovereign engineering and manufacturing skills and ensuring that the vehicles remain supported through their 30-year operational life.

Boxer

Boxer is a state-of-the-art wheeled armoured vehicle with outstanding mobility and protection features. Its design allows for any Mission Module configuration with a payload of up to circa 15 tonnes. So far, more than 800 vehicles in various configurations have been supplied to, or ordered by, three NATO nations – Germany, the Netherlands and Lithuania – as well as Australia. The Australian armed forces are introducing the Boxer under the Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle (CRV) project.

RBSL’s Telford site

RBSL’s Telford site, originally GKN-Sankey, then Alvis Vickers, and lastly BAE Systems Land UK, has produced a large number of armoured vehicles for the British Army and for export, including the FV430 series (now Bulldog), Warrior, Desert Warrior, Piranha 2, Saxon, Tactica, and Urgent Operational Requirements for recent operations.

[ArmChairCivvy]

£ 2.3 bn to get two Strike bdes stood up (of course many other things will be required, in addition to kit in existence). The point being that what monies will be needed to keep two other (AI) bdes in shape thru Ch3 + Warrior will need to be compared to this expenditure... and of course come in below that sum.

Talking about those many other things, this

Mission Module configuration with a payload of up to circa 15 tonnes

opens up quite a few avenues if such things need to be armoured and with good intra-theatre mobility.

[BlueD954]

£ 2.3 bn to get two Strike bdes stood up (of course many other things will be required, in addition to kit in existence). The point being that what monies will be needed to keep two other (AI) bdes in shape thru Ch3 + Warrior will need to be compared to this expenditure... and of course come in below that sum.

Talking about those many other things, this

Mission Module configuration with a payload of up to circa 15 tonnes

opens up quite a few avenues if such things need to be armoured and with good intra-theatre mobility.

Will there be R&D to have mortar and ATGM Boxer variants - platforms critical to any wheeled or armoured infantry platform.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Picked this up from a status report as of Feb this year:

OCCAR has referred to a modular installation system, in which elements (mainly COTS/MOTS products) are available in the categories protection, sensors, effectors, C4I, as well as configuration examples for interior and exterior, which can be used to quickly generate mission-specific modules.

The Boxer for UK will have a special feature. For the mission modules (except ambulance) there will be mission kits, which will allow an even more detailed adaptation to the respective task.

The success of the concept with mission modules can also be seen in the fact that new ideas/requirements for the realization of further capabilities based on the Boxer are constantly being presented by the user side. This includes among others

– Reconnaissance and observation with stabilized platform (Joint Fire Support),

– qualified air defence, including against UAV and helicopters (Short Range Air Defence) and

– Infantry combat with manned turret and medium calibre cannon (Heavy weapon platform).

The ARTEC consortia present military customers with proposals for mission modules, some of which are functional demonstrators designed in response to military requirements.

– Remote controlled howitzer 155 mm (RCH 155). A further development could be ready for series production from 2027.

– Rocket launcher to supplement / replace MARS

– Mortar carrier

– Ammunition transporters

– Close-range air defense with cannon

– Laser weapon system for defence against drones and artillery shells

– Bridge laying vehicle with LEGUAN or GECKO bridge

With the only mission module developed outside ARTEC to date, FFG Fahrzeugbaugesellschaft has presented a vehicle for recovery and field repair.

https://euro-sd.com/2020/02/news/16085/ ... t-vehicle/

[SD67]

Direct Boxer news releases

https://www.wfel.com/news/wfel-to-manuf ... k-mod/1022

Under the recently signed £2.3 billion contract between UK MoD and ARTEC - the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Rheinmetall consortium - a significant portion of the manufacture of the 500 Boxer Armoured Vehicles for the Army’s Strike Brigades will take place at KMW’s UK subsidiary, WFEL, creating a substantial number of jobs for both WFEL and its UK-wide supply chain.

The Boxer Mechanised Infantry Vehicle programme aims to source more than 60% by value of the vehicle content from UK suppliers and these 8 x 8 wheeled vehicles will be supplied in several different configurations, including an armoured personnel carrier, field ambulance, command vehicle and specialist carrier.Delivery of the vehicles is expected to start from 2023 and this order marks the return of the UK to a European Defence Programme, having taken part in the Boxer project while in its infancy. Boxer is now on its way to becoming one of NATO’s standard vehicles.

....
As part of the preparations for this significant contract, WFEL has re-energised its Apprenticeship Scheme, with the first of its new Apprentice recruits recently joining the company to follow the path of Advanced Apprenticeships in Engineering Manufacture and keen to be involved in this 10-year contract.

As well as the on-going commitment to new Apprenticeships, WFEL is also actively recruiting for a substantial number of new roles to be based at its Stockport site, whilst engaging with both existing and new suppliers in anticipation of its contribution to both the North West economy and the Northern Powerhouse.

Ian Anderton, Managing Director of WFEL, said, “Our substantial involvement in the Boxer programme allows us to further develop our UK supply chain, in turn creating and protecting valuable UK engineering jobs and developing new skills for our staff and those of our supply chain partners. Working in close partnership with our KMW colleagues, we are both delighted and proud to be part of this transformational project for the British Army, with whom we have worked for many years.”

https://www.rbsl.com/news-and-events/ne ... -programme

Rheinmetall Landsysteme awards RBSL £860 million subcontract for UK MOD’s Mechanised Infantry Vehicle programme – more than 260 Boxer vehicles to be produced in Telford.

In a Group-internal transaction, Rheinmetall Landsysteme has awarded Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) a subcontract to manufacture more than 260 Boxer vehicles for the UK MOD’s Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV) programme. The Command and Special Carrier variants will be produced at RBSL’s facility in Telford, Shropshire.

The subcontract, worth about £860 million (€960 million), marks a significant milestone for the programme, following the £2.3 billion MIV contract awarded to ARTEC, the Rheinmetall and KMW consortium in December 2019.

The contract will create and sustain over 200 skilled jobs in and around Telford, with the complete programme creating and sustaining more than 1,000 jobs nationally. The award of this contract will allow RBSL to provide work and training opportunities to more than 60 apprentices over the next five years, which is anticipated to be replicated across the UK supply chain.

The MIV programme aims to source 60%, by value, of the contract from within the UK. In order to achieve this, RBSL is part of the MIV Joint Procurement Team, which has engaged with suppliers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The team has issued over 250 requests for quotations, and RBSL has completed numerous detailed supplier audits.

By working with a vibrant UK supply chain, the MIV programme will help support economic growth and level-up regional economic opportunity. The MIV programme aims to support and enhance the UK supply chain, including SMEs. It will also ensure that the UK has, in country, the skills and expertise to support the vehicles throughout their operational life.

Millions of pounds of investment will be made across British industry in training and capital equipment, increasing productivity throughout the supply chain. RBSL alone is making a £20 million investment in its Telford site to improve infrastructure, provide state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities, and deliver some of the highest standards of training for specialist capabilities, such as welding.

Defence Minister Jeremy Quin said:

“Investment in Defence is an investment into British industry and this Boxer contract will create and sustain thousands of skilled jobs throughout the country over its lifetime. Defence contracts like this at RBSL in Telford will modernise and upgrade our Armed Forces whilst helping the nation build back better from the Covid-19 pandemic.”

Dr Marco Nöding, RBSL Managing Director, said:

“RBSL’s subcontract is a great step forward after months of hard work. Working with Rheinmetall and other partners, RBSL is bringing new skills and technologies into the business and the UK supply chain.”

Dr Marco Noeding: “I feel proud that RBSL has the opportunity to support British industry by working with UK-based suppliers – especially given the extraordinary circumstances the UK faces as a result of COVID-19. The next step for us is to formalise our community of suppliers and ensure the British Army receives their new vehicles manufactured to the highest standards.”

The MIV programme

In November 2019, ARTEC, a joint venture between two German companies – Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann – signed the £2.3 billion contract to deliver 500+ Boxer vehicles to the British Army.

The vehicles will be manufactured in the UK, with production subcontracted equally between Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) and WFEL. The companies will undertake fabrication of the armoured vehicle structures together with assembly, integration and test of the complete vehicles at their respective facilities in Telford and Stockport.

The MIV contract will sustain jobs at RBSL and WFEL sites across the UK, as well as a vibrant national supply chain. The plan is to source more than 60%, by value, of the contract from within the UK, protecting the UK’s sovereign engineering and manufacturing skills and ensuring that the vehicles remain supported through their 30-year operational life.

...
RBSL’s Telford site

RBSL’s Telford site, originally GKN-Sankey, then Alvis Vickers, and lastly BAE Systems Land UK, has produced a large number of armoured vehicles for the British Army and for export, including the FV430 series (now Bulldog), Warrior, Desert Warrior, Piranha 2, Saxon, Tactica, and Urgent Operational Requirements for recent operations.

This sounds so much more realistic than Ajax or Warrior CSP (if it ever happens)
- Boxer is an established product with a User base. None of the risk of a bespoke upgrade program
- Telford is a long established defence site , vs ex-forklift factory with a newbie workforce
- Realistic package of subcontract work under management of the Prime.

Hopefully this will ripple through the supply chain and benefit future Land Projects

[bobp]

Not sure if this has been seen before..

[Gtal]

£ 2.3 bn to get two Strike bdes stood up (of course many other things will be required, in addition to kit in existence). The point being that what monies will be needed to keep two other (AI) bdes in shape thru Ch3 + Warrior will need to be compared to this expenditure... and of course come in below that sum.

Talking about those many other things, this

Mission Module configuration with a payload of up to circa 15 tonnes

opens up quite a few avenues if such things need to be armoured and with good intra-theatre mobility.

Surely the Boxer deal includes a surcharge relating to the UK workshare. I doubt KMW are setting up UK factories and supplychains on their own dime.
The MOD isn't just buying 500 vehicles, it's also buing 10 years worth of fleet servicing and knowledge transfers like specialised welding techniques.

It would be shortsighted to evaluate the situation on a simplistic "2,3 bil=500 boxers" basis.
Many of the UKs procurement shortcomings arose from exactly that kind of inadequate evaluations of value for money.
The UK has completely neglected and run-down any kind of industrial capability in the land warfare domain and it will cost extra money and effort to rectify the situation. But at least there are some signs, like the Boxer deal, that this has been recognised and we'll have to hope that there is more to come.

[whitelancer]

£ 2.3 bn to get two Strike bdes stood up (of course many other things will be required, in addition to kit in existence). The point being that what monies will be needed to keep two other (AI) bdes in shape thru Ch3 + Warrior will need to be compared to this expenditure... and of course come in below that sum.

The Strike Brigades are going to be very expensive to equip, its not only the cost of Boxer but Ajax and the new artillery required. that's before everything that is on peoples wish list. The cost of updating Challenger and Warrior should come nowhere close
.
A bit of speculation on my part, but I don't think 2+2 is valid anymore. More likely is 1+2, with a single square Armoured Brigade with 2 Armoured Regiments and 2 Armoured Infantry Battalions, along with the 2 Strike Brigades. (Not that I've ever thought we would actually see 2 Strike Brigades, not configured as currently intended anyway.) Time will tell.

[Lord Jim]

The 1+2 result could be on the cards as the overall theme of where the Powers that be see the Army heading is once again moving towards the expeditionary role. s a result the "Strike" Brigades are going to be at the forefront but the UK still needs to have a strong commitment to NATO. Reversing the trend and having the single "Squared" Armoured Brigade stationed in Germany or possibly further east would meet that requirement quite nicely.

I agree the "Strike" Brigades are going to be expensive to kit out if the additional capabilities they need are factored in. At a bear minimum the following Boxer variants are needed to make the Mechanised Infantry Battalion viable combat units;
Mortar Carrier
Combat Engineering Vehicle
Armoured Bridge Layer
Joint Fires Platform
Signals/EW Platform
The two engineering variants are essential to ensure the Battalions have the mobility needed to carry out their assigned roles and Joint Fires and Signals/EW variants are essential if the Battalions are going to be able to deal with emerging as well as existing threats. The former of course is linked to the planned new Artillery platform(s) the Army has identified it needs moving forward as well as the munitions that will be fired from them.

In addition to the above Boxer variants the following could also be seen as just as important;
Air Defence Platform
ATGW Platform
If the basic Boxer continues to be armed with only a .50 Cal HMG or 40mm AGL then the Battalions are going to need a Heavy ATGW Section to give it viable AT firepower even if the Basic Boxers also are given Javelin due to its limited range.

Air Defence is a capability the British Army has not pursued seriously since the 1990s. The current Starstreak/LMM both mounted and dismounts are effective but very limited in the area they can protect. Ideally the SP launcher units and IRST sensors would be transferred to a Boxer Mission Module for commonality and deplorability sake. Further ahead we should look at adding an auto Cannon to the system, possibly the same 30mm Chain Gun as used on the Apache, to give the vehicles further options especially when engaging UAVs.

The current orders for CAAM/Land Ceptor are wholly insufficient, equipping only a single Regiment of four Batteries, one of which is already allocated to the Falklands. The number on order needs to be doubled at least to allow deployments to protect land forces as well as Air Bases as is the role of the current joint Army/RAF Regiment Rapier Force. In fact it might be reasonable to give all the current planned CAAM to the Royal Artillery and the RAF Regiment continue to operate the Rapier FSC, splitting the force back into the individual Services.

The issue of mixing Ajax with the Boxer in the "Strike" Brigades continues to concern many independent experts. Personally I feel this is being done to maintain the Ajax programme at the size it currently is. I believe we only need on or two Regiments, held at Divisional level in the role they were originally intended. On of these should be based along with the Armoured Brigade on the continent whilst the other based in the UK to provide Recce for deployments elsewhere if needed or to reinforce the forward based units in Europe.

This of course would mean the number of Boxer Battalions would be double what is originally planned, but saving from the reductions in both the WCSP and Ajax numbers purchased as well as inevitable manpower reduction wen added to the "New" money announced could make this and the additional capabilities needed possible. The other two services will probably scream blue murder, but accelerating the Boxer programme and ordering the new variants would be viable within the period the new money is available, whereas programmes like the T-32 or TEMPEST are far further down the line and can be sustained with far smaller resources relatively speaking.

I haven't mentioned the Challenger upgrade until now but this could also take place in this period if the Army took decisive action. The programme could be put on a very firm footing and by the end of the four years a production contract could be signed for two Regiments worth without affecting the Boxer's expanded programme.

All of the above will require decisive action being taken sooner rather than later. The MoD's focus must be on the next decade in the main. Yes looking further ahead is important but in the past they have been too focused on the future and current and near term needs have suffered. We need to have equipment programmes for the Army in place and running effectively so that we can definitely avoid the situation we ran into in Iraq and Afghanistan where we were forces to spend £Bns on UORs to gain capabilities we should already have.

Boxer should have been in service then, and the creation of the "Strike" Brigades should have now been a case of obtaining the additional capabilities Boxers to balance and uplift the units to meets the new threats, consolidating the majority of Boxers in the new formations. Ajax should have been recognised or what it was, and the size of the Army's heavy force identified and programmes in place already to bring these up to date and make them relevant fir the future. This didn't happen but the new money has given the MoD to opportunity to put thing right and it must be grasped with both hands. The future and relevance of the Army depends on this.

[SW1]

Or 3 identically configured armoured brigades centred on challenger and boxer which can undertake the strike brigade role when they deploy without challenger.

[jimthelad]

That won't work . Skillsets are completely different for combined armour vs mech infantry in light role.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The Strike Brigades are going to be very expensive to equip, its not only the cost of Boxer but Ajax and the new artillery required. that's before everything that is on peoples wish list. The cost of updating Challenger and Warrior should come nowhere close

It won't.

stationed in Germany or possibly further east would meet that requirement quite nicely.

Even though the heavy metal is near there, we have not made it to bde level exercises (the fields are in Poland, these days... perhaps when we were the lead for the first of NATO's very high readiness force that happened, just to qualify - a process now in place, but can't remember it being reported)

At a bear minimum the following Boxer variants are needed to make the Mechanised Infantry Battalion viable combat units;
Mortar Carrier
Combat Engineering Vehicle
Armoured Bridge Layer
Joint Fires Platform
Signals/EW Platform
The two engineering variants are essential to ensure the Battalions have the mobility needed to carry out their assigned roles and Joint Fires and Signals/EW variants are essential if the Battalions are going to be able to deal with emerging as well as existing threats.

Those are bde-level assets; you decide the direction where to send the bns - and then, some of those specialised assets would need to be allocated. All all of what the bde holds; if there are such challenges on that axis, to be dealt with.

The current Starstreak/LMM both mounted and dismounts are effective but very limited in the area they can protect.

They are the protection for units on the move; it is the next level up where there's hardly anything (exc. enough HW for training & for the Falklands)

whereas programmes like the T-32 or TEMPEST are far further down the line and can be sustained with far smaller resources relatively speaking.

A great idea... don't invest for the mid-30s force (bcz, allegedly, Putin will retire by then... who is going to be the next guy?)

[jedibeeftrix]

Re: the point about having more Ajax than we need (for a single sq Arm-Inf brigade)

In addition to tearing out the intenal gubbins that turns an IFV into a Scout vehicle...
How about the revolutionary notion of putting some of the Ajax into the reserve force, to stand up a Ajax battalion (rgt?), to parallel the reserves Tank regiment we have?

I know, right! Revolutionary, using brand new vehicles to equip reserve units?
When they should be so lucky to get 432's with all the gucci kit installed for desert storm!

Other nations do this. Notably Poland with its K2 procurement.

I know there will be people saying the army doesn;t have the spare cash for such fripperies, and all money should be piled into teeth regardless of how withered the tail is...

But, I'd gently suggest that unless the army pulls its finger out and creates a coherent plan to generate a useful force, then it deserves everything it might get in this review.

And focusing its heavy armour in a single brigade with a [real] reserve component might just be a way to make the strike dream work.

[ArmChairCivvy]

stand up a Ajax battalion (rgt?), to parallel the reserves Tank regiment we have?

Agree. Much remains to be done to get to the "whole force" concept which was given as a - not the - rationale for the drastic cuts in 2010.

Heavy metal - @LJ should like this - should live on (dinosaurs or not; there's no proof for that 'expedient' slogan) in the regular and reserve forces alike. Been banging the drum about that since the days of TD's forum, but
- the mentioned tank unit, and
- GMLRS (to up the numbers from a 70 km sniper force with the Regulars to what is needed for divisional... weight of,,, fires)
are the only evidence of the whole force concept being taken for real

I think there is a review oncoming, but not sure whether its terms of reference are just about the recruitment aspects, or also cover the plans to kit out the (larger?) volunteer force

[SW1]

That won't work . Skillsets are completely different for combined armour vs mech infantry in light role.

The French seem to make it work

[RunningStrong]

In addition to tearing out the intenal gubbins that turns an IFV into a Scout vehicle...
How about the revolutionary notion of putting some of the Ajax into the reserve force, to stand up a Ajax battalion (rgt?), to parallel the reserves Tank regiment we have?
.

It would need to be a reserve force that is concentrated near all the off-platform training equipment that exists for AJAX. It's a comprehensive suite.

[jimthelad]

That won't work . Skillsets are completely different for combined armour vs mech infantry in light role.

The French seem to make it work

Do they? In my experience of Conops, they rarely work well at all. You are asking a battle group to leave home the one instrument of tactical entry they have and either not have the troops at all or just use the tank crews as badly trained light infantry. If you have combined arms armoured battlegroups then use them or just have mech infantry battle groups. The skillsets are not interchangeable and would require several weeks of workup to re-establish.

These are not innate and are frangible. The reason why the BA is effective is training- often in single role and specialism. As for the French, my own experience of their mechanised units was not impressive. We held up at combined Franco-German brigade on exercise for 2 hours using 2 coy of Paras and a single coy of Ghurka's. The Black watch battle group came in from defilade and inserted a very unwelcome iron enema after this. Part of the reason for this was the use of a hybrid formation which had not properly worked up and did not exploit any favourable terrain due to the composite nature of their vehicle set and the unwilingness of the commanders to adapt their tactics.

[Lord Jim]

Lord Jim wrote:
stationed in Germany or possibly further east would meet that requirement quite nicely.
Even though the heavy metal is near there, we have not made it to bde level exercises (the fields are in Poland, these days... perhaps when we were the lead for the first of NATO's very high readiness force that happened, just to qualify - a process now in place, but can't remember it being reported)
Lord Jim wrote:
At a bear minimum the following Boxer variants are needed to make the Mechanised Infantry Battalion viable combat units;
Mortar Carrier
Combat Engineering Vehicle
Armoured Bridge Layer
Joint Fires Platform
Signals/EW Platform
The two engineering variants are essential to ensure the Battalions have the mobility needed to carry out their assigned roles and Joint Fires and Signals/EW variants are essential if the Battalions are going to be able to deal with emerging as well as existing threats.
Those are bde-level assets; you decide the direction where to send the bns - and then, some of those specialised assets would need to be allocated. All all of what the bde holds; if there are such challenges on that axis, to be dealt with.
Lord Jim wrote:
The current Starstreak/LMM both mounted and dismounts are effective but very limited in the area they can protect.
They are the protection for units on the move; it is the next level up where there's hardly anything (exc. enough HW for training & for the Falklands)
Lord Jim wrote:
whereas programmes like the T-32 or TEMPEST are far further down the line and can be sustained with far smaller resources relatively speaking.

A great idea... don't invest for the mid-30s force (bcz, allegedly, Putin will retire by then... who is going to be the next guy?

Yes traditionally some of these assets would have been held at Brigade level, but with the planned operational doctrine these need to be held at Battalion Level. Further assets such as a Royal Artillery Regiment equipped with Land Ceptor and a Royal Engineers Regiment containing M£ Ferries and lorry borne BR-90 Bridges would be at Brigade level now. The Same goes for Signals/EW. Individual Battalions will need an integral capability but that is not to say additional assets will be assigned to Brigade level, probably from 6th Division.

As for not investing in the future, I agree this must continue, but we must not take our eyes of the here and now and the additional money will bring far greater benefits to the Army over this time period and so a significant portion should be allocated there. We are only talking up to 2024, and no TEMPEST platforms are due to fly by then nor will any T-32s begin construction, so funding should continue at the current planned rate.

Back to Boxer, what I see is there being three Mechanised Infantry Companies per Battalion along with a support Company. The latter would contain a Mortar Platoon (9x 120mm Platforms), AT Platoon (9x ATGW Carriers) and an AD Platoon (9x SPAA Platforms). In addition at Battalion HQ level there would be an Engineering Platoon with 3x Boxer AVLBs and 6x Boxer CETs) as well as a Recce Platoon with either a Recce variant of Boxer using either the Ajax or Warrior Turret upgraded with a ATGW or a Recce variant of the JLTV or even Jackals. Whichever platform is used would also have a telescopic mast equipped with an EO module and a GSR. Joint Fires Boxers would be attached to each Company HQ as would two Boxer ARVs. The Basic Boxer APC would still be armed with a RWS with a .50 cal HMG but the RWS would be able to launch Javelin and each vehicle would carry two or three rounds to be fired form the vehicle or by dismounts.

These are the sort of capability enhancements that must be carried out for the "Strike" Brigades to have any real value on anything but low intensity COIN operations. Even then the formations lacks the real level of firepower needed and so will greatly rely on Artillery support and/or support from a battlegroup form the Armoured Brigade. There are other capabilities I can see the Battalions and Brigade needing such as greatly enhanced ISTAR capabilities and I can only hope that the on going trials regarding the shape and capability requirements highlight the long list of deficiencies the current organisation contains.

[ArmChairCivvy]

a Recce variant of Boxer using either the Ajax or Warrior Turret

Would the size of turret ring for the Ajax turret eliminate it (?) and leave only the Warrior one - 'old' if the Warrior prgrm does not make it over the chalk lines, or new production in the opposite case.

Even then the formations lacks the real level of firepower needed and so will greatly rely on Artillery support and/or support from a battlegroup form the Armoured Brigade.

Absolutely... so the 2+2 bdes plan should be maintained, perhaps time boxing it, to get to 2+1 within a decent stretch of time; the 2nd Strike bde coming on-line in 'its own time' and the artillery component required for the whole concept to work being 'fixed' not in its own time, but on the double .

[Lord Jim]

Would the size of turret ring for the Ajax turret eliminate it (?) and leave only the Warrior one - 'old' if the Warrior prgrm does not make it over the chalk lines, or new production in the opposite case.

It would probably take a bit more work as I believe all the previous turrets tried on the Mission Module have been standard, but I cannot see any reason why the Ajax turret could not be used. But as a result using the Warrior turret may be slightly cheaper assuming the turrets are surplus no longer being needed as their parent programmes have reduced in scale.

[mr.fred]

the Warrior one - 'old' if the Warrior prgrm does not make it over the chalk lines, or new production in the opposite case.

Isn’t it new in either case?

[ArmChairCivvy]

I think you are right (I was writing from a financial commitment angle) in that the seven delivered with turrets should be regarded as prototypes and the rest will follow only 'thru' the Main Gate.

Two fairly expensive items will arrive as GFE (so when cost figures will be announced it might again be anybody's guess whether these will be in the total or not):
" the WARRIOR Modular Protection System (WMPS). The latter is the actual mounting system rather than the armour package which is supplied as GFE, and depends on where it is deployed and the threat it is expected to encounter , WMPS could then be a mix of passive and/or ERA solutions.

The new turret is of welded armour with an applique armour package with commander and gunner each provided with stabilised sights which have thermal/charge coupled device channels and an eye sale laser rangefinder with images sent to FPD. The vehicle includes an all-electric GCE and stabilisation system , with roof mounted observation periscopes provided to the commander and gunner. The 40mm CTAS weapon is supplied as GFE"
- so it could well be that as for the turrets only the gun (and the changed feed system for it?) falls into 'fixed commitments' category, so far