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British Army Future Wheeled APC

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British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 17 Sep 2015, 00:21

................
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Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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shark bait
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 17 Sep 2015, 01:46

The market place is very crowded with new as well as in service vehicles so hopefully competition should be strong. Obviously it depends on how its managed and who's setting the requirements but it could be a good thing. As long as they don't already have something in mind and have a bastardised competition that takes ages and has loads of challenges.

I had this down for restarting in 2017/18 so surprised to see it popping up now, good news non the less. Or maybe they are expecting a terrible drawn out process so decided they should start early!

Either way, boxer looks fantastic to me, we should have just stuck with that in the first instance!
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby riksavage » 17 Sep 2015, 07:08

VBCI failed the first selection, the one proposed is the MKII version

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 17 Sep 2015, 14:49

...............
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 17 Sep 2015, 15:02

My favourites would be either the Piranha V again and the VCBI Mk2. Of course, i guess the Army will have a very different idea about what it wants and why.

Stryker seems a bit left field along with the Terrex IMO. Not sure what would really separate it from the GD offering. Just seems to be an Americanised Piranha built to placate US industry. The Patria AMV could perhaps make for an interesting addition to the trials - might have an outside chance given its widespread popularity. Underdog maybe?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Wrekin762 » 17 Sep 2015, 15:41

The new Stryker they have on the stand next to Ajax is ugly as sin.

I assume that like Nexter are proposing the latest VBCI variant; an offering from Patria would be the AMV XP hull they have on display, and ST Kinetics will off the Terrex 2 they unveiled at DSEI.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Gabriele » 17 Sep 2015, 21:01

You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby marktigger » 17 Sep 2015, 21:30

I wonder if we'll get stryker for commonality?

though though this was sewn up with renault

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby RetroSicotte » 17 Sep 2015, 21:33

I always feel Boxer is worth looking at simply due to its quality and the fact it shares an engine with the Ajax. Excellent commonality and the Boxer already has every type of variant you could ever want from a very active and capable industrial partner.

I have a sneaky suspicion about the VBCI MkII though, given many of the modifications to it were specifically because the British Army had faults they found. It is tailoring itself, knowing there's a massive sale to be made.

And never ever forget that "We'll buy Watchkeeper if you buy VBCI" deal a while back. Although the French UAV program seems to be advancing to a decision long before this one will be,

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 17 Sep 2015, 21:41

..............
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

arfah
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 17 Sep 2015, 21:50

.................
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 17 Sep 2015, 22:50

arfah wrote:Because Boxer and Piranha V both went arse over tit, I strongly suspect this will be an accelerated programme.

The Army will already have a steady foundation of knowledge for some types and their capabilities but...

...In the link it was mentioned that this was the army's funding priority.


How so? Do you mean in terms of us trying to bring them in to service?

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 17 Sep 2015, 22:58

RetroSicotte wrote:I always feel Boxer is worth looking at simply due to its quality and the fact it shares an engine with the Ajax. Excellent commonality and the Boxer already has every type of variant you could ever want from a very active and capable industrial partner.

I have a sneaky suspicion about the VBCI MkII though, given many of the modifications to it were specifically because the British Army had faults they found. It is tailoring itself, knowing there's a massive sale to be made.

And never ever forget that "We'll buy Watchkeeper if you buy VBCI" deal a while back. Although the French UAV program seems to be advancing to a decision long before this one will be,


Never really got that from it. Not saying it is bad quality by any means but it has never stood out in that regard for me. A bit like people's perception of the Leo 2 in that way - that of superior build quality and excellent engineering (which to be fair the Leo 2 may have more of a claim to i guess). May i ask why, or from where, you get that perception? I'd be interested to know why it is clearly held in such high regard compared to its peers? :)

Also, was VCBI MkII development partially aided by British feedback??? From the earlier FRES trials i presume and not the later, most recent round of trials? I had to laugh when i read the wiki entry for it - it allegedly packs and engine nearly twice as powerful as the standard unit currently in service with French models! :)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby arfah » 17 Sep 2015, 23:03

.................
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 17 Sep 2015, 23:05

arfah wrote:
~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:How so? Do you mean in terms of us trying to bring them in to service?


Yes.

We left the joint Boxer programme and Piranha V won the competition but there was no agreement on finance with General Dynamics.


Ah, i get you. Thanks for the clarification. Thought you had perhaps meant that the Piranha V had never actually got off the ground after FRES! :D

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Sep 2015, 08:26

A statement was made that Boxer has any version available that you might ever want? Here's some AMV geneology, though many versions are missing (e.g. AD) http://tanknutdave.com/the-finnish-patria-amv/

I have always regarded Freccia as a top product, but wasn't the unit price in the order of $5m (sure, partly because of a very limited production run, for budgetary reasons stretched over a long time line... a bit like we could have had 8 Astutes for the price of 7, but the line had to be kept open for Successor to jump through the hoops)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Tony Williams » 18 Sep 2015, 09:38

arfah wrote:Possible solutions


I think it's slightly more complicated than this, as one or two of the models are available in different versions varying quite significantly in width and weight.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 18 Sep 2015, 12:16

RetroSicotte wrote:I always feel Boxer is worth looking at simply due to its quality and the fact it shares an engine with the Ajax. Excellent commonality and the Boxer already has every type of variant you could ever want from a very active and capable industrial partner.


I had no idea it was a commonn engine, getting very excited about potential commonality points over here.

It already looked very appealing to me, mostly because of the well developed variants leave little extra work for UK, and if we wanted to the modular nature makes it simple. Now I know its a common engine that's a show stopper.

German and British engineering are fantastic and both have their own qualities, so following that logic a vehicle with input from us both should be fantastic too.
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 18 Sep 2015, 14:27

As the final decision will likely be driven by cost I though I would research unit costs. These are from past order value divided by the number of vehicles so are only a rough indicator.

Code: Select all

Terrex 8x8:          £1.0m
Piranha V:           £3.6m
Stryker:             £3.2m
Pandur II 8x8:       £2.0m
Boxer:               £2.1m
VBCI Mk2:            £2.0m
Patria AMV:          £1.6m
Iveco Freccia 8x8:   £2.2m
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Sep 2015, 18:10

shark bait wrote:As the final decision will likely be driven by cost I though I would research unit costs. These are from past order value divided by the number of vehicles so are only a rough indicator.

Code: Select all

Terrex 8x8:          £1.0m
Piranha V:           £1.6m
Stryker:             £1.0m
Pandur II 8x8:       £2.0m
Boxer:               £2.1m
VBCI Mk2:            £2.0m
Patria AMV:          £1.6m
Iveco Freccia 8x8:   £2.2m


I am sure you have a good source, so just some random observations:
terrex for the old one, II just launched
P V , is that the Danish order, or others mixed in?
Stryker with US comms et al is in excess of $4m (taht was without the V-bottom)
VBCI (like terrex) just launched in "II" version
Patria seems to hit the mark (the versions vary wildly and everything that goes with the turret is the expensive bit)
Freccia: how many orders? The Italian one, when euro was strong, converted to about $5m

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby shark bait » 19 Sep 2015, 02:32

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I am sure you have a good source, so just some random observations:


observations are probably valid, just a quick search I did from a data base to give some ball park figures

terrex for the old one, II just launched [its 2009 Singapore order]

P V , is that the Danish order, or others mixed in? [Spanish]

Stryker with US comms et al is in excess of $4m (taht was without the V-bottom) [wiki agrees with that, updated, american contracts are misleading in what they include.]

VBCI (like terrex) just launched in "II" version [origional French order]

Patria seems to hit the mark (the versions vary wildly and everything that goes with the turret is the expensive bit)

Freccia: how many orders? The Italian one, when euro was strong, converted to about $5m [That makes things interesting then, one source did give that figure, however it seems so off the mark I went looking for another and found this. Perhaps $5m is correct afterall. I'm sure Gabriele will clarify for us]
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Tony Williams » 19 Sep 2015, 08:06

The costs quoted seem generally rather low to me. Possibly the low ones are for a bare vehicle, without any any of the sensors, armament, add-on armour or other optional extras fitted?

We all know that different versions of a car very greatly in price, and then there's the optional extras which can add on another 50%....It can be difficult to ensure that like is being compared with like with such a simple cost comparison.

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Sep 2015, 09:45

To the point!

As we all know, too, that everyone wants a BMW, and it would have to be 6-series or up... just doesn't happen (for most of us, or in the case of APCs; IFVs and recce wagons can be afforded better as the numbers required often are lower)

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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby Gabriele » 19 Sep 2015, 20:33

The Freccia has been ordered in successive lots by the italian ministry.

The first major purchase, or "Brigade 1", is seeing the last deliveries. It comprises:

174 IFV
36 ATGW
18 C2 (not yet firmly ordered because the final configuration is still being worked out and will now comprise a "TACTICAL" command vehicle, with the same turret as the IFV, and a "COMMAND" APC-like variant with the proper C2 shelter)
20 120mm Mortar

The cost for the Brigade 1 programme is 1.5 billion euro. Note that this includes development of the vehicle, which was then totally new, and all variants.

The "Brigade 2" purchase includes:

163 IFV
120 Explorer (Reconnaissance Variant for the Cavalry regiments, coming in two sub-variants, the "FAR" carrying the combined IRESS radar-optic reconnaissance system, Horus UAVs and the "CLOSE" carrying a UGV and Spike missiles)
40 Recovery
36 ATGW
14 Mortar
8 C2

Costs given are 2,65 billion euro over 10 - 11 years, from 2014.

The "unitary cost" is above 6 million euro in both orders if you divide the total expense by the number of vehicles, but it comprises all the kit. The recce variants, as can be imagined, will be quite expensive.
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Re: British Army Future Wheeled APC

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 19 Sep 2015, 23:29

Interesting snippet here - according to the people over at defensenews a spokesperson for KMW has stated that they will not be pitching the Boxer in the new wheeled vehicle tender: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /72365238/


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