Page 1 of 16

Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 17:46
by The Armchair Soldier
A thread for current and future ground based air defence systems within the British Army.

Here's a quick summary of the systems we have in service at the moment (all info is sourced from Wikipedia):
______________________

STARSTREAK

Image

Starstreak is a British short range man-portable air-defense system (MANPADS) manufactured by Thales Air Defence (formerly Shorts Missile Systems) in Belfast. It is also known as Starstreak HVM (High Velocity Missile). After launch, the missile accelerates to more than Mach 4, making it the fastest short-range surface-to-air missile in the world. It then launches three laser beam riding submunitions, increasing the likelihood of a successful hit on the target. Starstreak has been in service with the British Army since 1997. In 2012, Thales rebranded the system under the ForceSHIELD banner.

Specifications:
Weight: 14.00 kg (30.86 lb)
Length: 1.397 m (4 ft 7 in)
Diameter: 13 cm (5.1 in)
Crew: 1
Effective firing range: 0.3–7 km (0.19–4.35 mi)
Warhead: Three explosive sub-munitions ("darts")
Warhead weight: 0.9 kg (2 lb)
Detonation mechanism: Impact Delay
Engine: Royal Ordnance 'Brambling' cast double-based propellant blip rocket motor (first stage), Royal Ordnance 'Titus' cast double-based propellant (second stage)
Speed: >Mach 4 (at second stage burnout)
Guidance system: SACLOS and SALH system

Variants:
LML: Fired from a Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML) that holds three missiles ready for firing and can be used as either a stationary launch unit or mounted on a light vehicle such as a Land Rover or HMMWV (Humvee). The LML originated in a proposal under the Army Suggestions Scheme for the Javelin system.

SP HVM: Carried on an Alvis Stormer AFV with a roof mounted eight round launcher with internal stowage for a further 12 missiles.

And there's a shoulder-launched variant which the Royal Marines were seen using in November 2014.
______________________

RAPIER

Image

Rapier is a British surface-to-air missile developed for the British Army and Royal Air Force. Entering service in 1971, it eventually replaced all other anti-aircraft weapons in Army service; guns for low-altitude targets and Thunderbird used against longer-range and higher-altitude targets. As the expected air threat moved from medium-altitude strategic missions to low-altitude strikes, the fast reaction time and high maneuverability of the Rapier made it more formidable than either of these weapons, replacing most of them by 1977. It remains the UK's primary air-defence weapon after almost 35 years of service, and its deployment is expected to continue until 2020.

Specifications:
Weight: 45 kg
Length: 2.235 m
Diameter: 0.133 m
Warhead: Blast fragmentation explosive close proximity warhead
Detonation mechanism: Proximity triggered chemical fuse
Engine: solid-fuel rocket
Wingspan: 0.138 m
Operational range: 400 – 8,200 m
Flight ceiling: 3,000 m
Speed: Mach 2.5 (3,062.6 km/h; 1,903.0 mph; 0.85073 km/s)
Guidance system: Semi-automatic command to line of sight
Steering system: flight control surface
Launch platform: vehicle or trailer
______________________

And Rapier's replacement...

FUTURE LOCAL AREA DEFENCE SYSTEM / LAND CEPTOR

Image

CAMM(L) (aka "Land Ceptor") is the land-based variant of CAMM and will replace the Rapier missile batteries of the British Army from 2020. Four three-pack launchers are fitted to a self-contained "pallet" that can be fitted to a range of trucks. The launch vehicle will not have its own radar, instead taking targeting information over a secure datalink as part of an integrated air-defence network and using the active seeker head for terminal guidance.

Specifications:
Weight: 99 kg
Length: 3.2 m
Diameter: 166 mm
Warhead: Directed fragmentation
Detonation mechanism: Contact or proximity
Engine: Solid-fuel rocket motor
Operational range: <1–25+ km
Speed: Mach 3 (1,020 m/s)
Guidance system: Two way data link, Active RF seeker

______________________

And finally, here are some videos for you to enjoy:






Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 17:48
by The Armchair Soldier
DSEI 2015: Thales Unveils Next-Generation Lightweight Multiple Launcher
Image
Thales Belfast has developed a next-generation variant of its Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML) to leverage both Starstreak and Lightweight Multirole Missile (LMM) effectors for day/night-enabled multimission engagement capability.

Unveiled at the DSEI exhibition in London on 14 September 2015, the new Lightweight Multiple Launcher - Next Generation (LML-NG) replaces the legacy LML Direct Optic View capability with new head and sensor assemblies, and delivers a ready-to-fire surface-to-air and surface-to-surface capability in one launch package.
Read More: http://www.janes.com/article/54273/dsei ... e-launcher

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 19:08
by marktigger
interesting a ship/small warship version would be useful

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 19:30
by Tiny Toy
marktigger wrote:interesting a ship/small warship version would be useful

Yes. That's Sea Ceptor - CAMM(M).

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 19:46
by marktigger
the LmL can launch starstreak or LMM so would be a very flexible mount for close in protection like the Javelin dets deployed on the Armilla patrol

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 20:53
by shark bait
Hooray for commonality! Let's hope they exploit it fully.

I agree, it would be very interesting on a small ship.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 22:43
by marktigger
very much so wonder if Airborne platform will be able to launch starstreak?

I do think we've run down Air Defence a bit far there is rumblings that the RAF Regt looking for roles are trying to get this discipline. I do think the Royal Artillery and Commando Air defence troop should resist this and fight to stay in the game.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 23:18
by shark bait
marktigger wrote:very much so wonder if Airborne platform will be able to launch starstreak?

.


It's reasonable as anything that can launch LLM is capable of Starstreak and both use very similar guidance, although I'm not sure how suitable laser beam riding is for air to air.

Once upon a time there was a variant of Starstreak that fired from an Apache


Edit, found an image here http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... reak4.html

Edit 2, better yet, found a video


Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 16 Sep 2015, 11:10
by The Armchair Soldier
Royal Thai Army places additional order for STARStreak Air Defence Missile Systems
Thales announced today at DSEI that it has signed a multi-million pound contract with DataGate in Thailand to supply the Royal Thai Army with the STARStreak air defence missile system.

This contract follows on from Thailand’s initial purchase of STARStreak in 2012.

[...]

Victor Chavez, CEO of Thales in the UK, said: “STARStreak is the leading VSHORAD system in the world today, enabling nations to protect key assets against both emerging and established threats. We are honored to continue to serve the Royal Thai Army as a key supplier for Thailand’s advanced air defence capability.”
Read More: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ce-missile

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 16 Sep 2015, 11:23
by marktigger
thats good news for Northern Ireland

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 27 Apr 2016, 08:27
by ArmChairCivvy
A quiet way to take tree top hugging UAVs out:
http://www.gizmag.com/shoulder-mounted- ... ult-widget

That's all you can do with a 100m range, but the weight is not too bad (10 kg).

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 27 Apr 2016, 14:12
by marktigger
a mix of EW and GBAD are the way ahead to protect against drones as we will find out

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 13:08
by Spinflight
The way ahead...

Seems to me we are at least a decade behind, could even argue a hundred years behind.

Correct me if I am wrong but the British Army has no means of countering UAVs. Admittedly Starstreak might possibly work against larger and cooperative targets. I think there are 24 SPs in service?

There is nothing surprising about the utility of UAVs for artillery spotting, nothing from the Ukraine should come as a shock. Yet despite every defence strategy paper talking about the revolution in warfare that these UAVs will bring it appears no-one has thought about ways to stop the counter revolution. Our UAVs will be revolutionary, theirs not worth worrying about.

Not only do we not have anything that can target a UAV, we also don't even have a program looking at solutions. The only analogy I can think of would be going into the first world war without anyone in the MoD considering that airplanes and balloons might lead to more accurate fire being received.

I'm so glad we pay to have 45,000 people looking at emerging trends in order to ensure our armed forces are well equipped for the future. Where would we be without Sir Humphrey?

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 13:25
by shark bait
Spinflight wrote:Not only do we not have anything that can target a UAV


Surely StarStreak is effective against medium low UAV's and CAMM effective against large high UAV's.

I don't believe we have anything to counter small UAV's, but there are a number of soft kill systems emerging on the market, I expect there will be some interest here.

We also have some EW capabilities that are effective against remotely piloted UAV's. Granted I don't believe those capabilities belong with the Army, do that have an organic EW capability?

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 13:48
by marktigger
How effective starstreak would be to a small target like a UAV without a proxility type fuse would be interesting and i wonder has LMM that sort of capability if you can mix and match them of the same LML you have a very flexible system. Hopefully 14 regt RSigs is looking at this problem and if they are as devious now as the ones I met a few years ago it'll be under discussion mind you can't see Bromuir being in service against them.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 13:53
by bobp
Just recently the Israelis had difficulty shooting down a drone, the ground to air missile missed, as did the missile from a f16. Perhaps they should try a shotgun.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 14:11
by marktigger
bobp wrote:Just recently the Israelis had difficulty shooting down a drone, the ground to air missile missed, as did the missile from a f16. Perhaps they should try a shotgun.


Hence the need for blast Fragmentation warhead on SAM's instead of tungsten penetrators

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 15:28
by Spinflight
shark bait wrote:Surely StarStreak is effective against medium low UAV's and CAMM effective against large high UAV's.


It would have to be a very cooperative, and fairly large, UAV in either case.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 15:41
by shark bait
Would star streak be very effective against soft UAV's giving its tripple very high speed, blast Fragmentation darts?

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 15:45
by mr.fred
Not really small ones since those darts aren't blast frag, but hittiles with a small burster charge.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 16:12
by ArmChairCivvy
marktigger wrote: i wonder has LMM that sort of capability if you can mix and match them of the same LML

A flexible launcher, easy to deploy even in logs columns... and there is much to be said for line-of-sight guidance against UAVs.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 16:33
by marktigger
i do believe there is an argument for combined systems like the russians have and the updated gepard cannon and short range missiles

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 17:55
by ArmChairCivvy
Something like this
https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/c ... 2_chassis/
and loadsa Stinger launchers hiding amongst treetops
http://www.lentoposti.fi/gallery2/main. ... b1f0c3b43e

You need to disperse and network the assets, to make them survivable and effective.

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 18:47
by Andy-M
Thales Rapidfire can be equipped with six Starstreak, or even Thales LMM, 40mm CTA Cannon firing airburst and six LMM would be enough for any drone.

http://s019.radikal.ru/i604/1309/80/5e221ef70f4d.jpg

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Posted: 12 Aug 2016, 19:41
by ArmChairCivvy
That .ru page buggered up my PC so well that a reboot was required...

I wonder what else came with it?