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Ground Based Air Defence

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
bobp
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby bobp » 12 Aug 2016, 21:03

Some drones are so tiny that missiles cant lock onto them, whether by IR or Radar. A really good detection system is needed to get an accurate bearing and range, and altitude probably in the mm wavelength, and if your lucky take it out with a blast fragmentation shell in close proximity or one of the new Electronic Warfare jammers. First you must detect it.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby arfah » 12 Aug 2016, 21:15

............
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Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Aug 2016, 21:24

bobp wrote: A really good detection system is needed to get an accurate bearing and range


Eye ball Mk1, lots of them and networked. Triangulation can't then be fooled by flight patterns (likely to come pre-programmed). Altitude must be done at the time of engagement as the human eye is not good with that (not even knowing the size of the object).

The problem is that the drones are likely to be circling around a concentration area (where dispersal will have been practised). So start to put rounds with proximity fuses up, or machine gun fire being corrected with the help of tracers... and a lot of it will be landing on the heads of your own troops.

Drones will be ubiquitous so no specialised solution (for them only) like lasers will be able to match that (in numbers/ presence).

bobp
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby bobp » 12 Aug 2016, 21:31

@ACC Thanks for putting me right I forgot about the nice guys on the ground.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby Andy-M » 12 Aug 2016, 23:24

ArmChairCivvy wrote:That .ru page buggered up my PC so well that a reboot was required...

I wonder what else came with it?


damn, I had two to choose from and picked that one, worryingly my security didn't pick anything up, looks like a system scan will be required. :oops:

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby marktigger » 13 Aug 2016, 16:12

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
bobp wrote: A really good detection system is needed to get an accurate bearing and range


Eye ball Mk1, lots of them and networked. Triangulation can't then be fooled by flight patterns (likely to come pre-programmed). Altitude must be done at the time of engagement as the human eye is not good with that (not even knowing the size of the object).

The problem is that the drones are likely to be circling around a concentration area (where dispersal will have been practised). So start to put rounds with proximity fuses up, or machine gun fire being corrected with the help of tracers... and a lot of it will be landing on the heads of your own troops.

Drones will be ubiquitous so no specialised solution (for them only) like lasers will be able to match that (in numbers/ presence).

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
bobp wrote: A really good detection system is needed to get an accurate bearing and range


Eye ball Mk1, lots of them and networked. Triangulation can't then be fooled by flight patterns (likely to come pre-programmed). Altitude must be done at the time of engagement as the human eye is not good with that (not even knowing the size of the object).

The problem is that the drones are likely to be circling around a concentration area (where dispersal will have been practised). So start to put rounds with proximity fuses up, or machine gun fire being corrected with the help of tracers... and a lot of it will be landing on the heads of your own troops.

Drones will be ubiquitous so no specialised solution (for them only) like lasers will be able to match that (in numbers/ presence).


Jamming their C2 with active Jammers is a good options to but an Integrating ESM into the AD detection network has got to be the first step. Providing an Electronic OP that can give a warning cry on ADCIS or like system giving range bearing will assist optical detection. Remember Starstreak is fired against UAV's in my day Blowpipe/Javelin it was against Shorts Skeets and AAAD was fired against MATSB

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby bobp » 13 Aug 2016, 22:17

Is starstreak able to lock onto a small electrical toy drone and isn't that overkill. Which is the point I was trying to make earlier. And as ACC mentioned rightly so you have to be careful what you fire over the heads of your own troops.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby mr.fred » 13 Aug 2016, 22:43

Depending on the version of Starstreak, it doesn't necessarily "lock-on" to anything. The darts go where the guidance laser grid is pointed. More recent versions of the launcher may have auto tracking, so they'll track anything that the computer can identify as consistently different from the background. Since it's hit-to-kill, the collateral risk is down range from the target rather than laterally offset from the target.
If you're using LMM then a proximity fuse might be a hazard, but that ought to be mitigated by warhead design.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby marktigger » 14 Aug 2016, 22:09

mr.fred wrote:Depending on the version of Starstreak, it doesn't necessarily "lock-on" to anything. The darts go where the guidance laser grid is pointed. More recent versions of the launcher may have auto tracking, so they'll track anything that the computer can identify as consistently different from the background. Since it's hit-to-kill, the collateral risk is down range from the target rather than laterally offset from the target.
If you're using LMM then a proximity fuse might be a hazard, but that ought to be mitigated by warhead design.


proximity fuze and blast frag were standard features of Blowpipe, Javelin and Starburst (Javelin/S15)

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby shark bait » 16 Aug 2016, 12:43

from janes;

Thales UK set to qualify LMM for British Army service

In British Army service, LMM will be integrated on platforms currently equipped with the Thales Starstreak High Velocity Missile (HVM) in a Very Short Range Air Defence (VSHORAD)/Counter-UAS role. These include the FV433 Stormer tracked reconnaissance vehicle, the tri-canister Thales Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML)-equipped platforms, and the single-canister shoulder-launched variant currently operated by dismounted infantry.


Good news, common sense and commonality prevails.

Surface to surface capability also available.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Aug 2016, 13:09

shark bait wrote: LMM will be integrated on platforms currently equipped with the Thales Starstreak High Velocity Missile (HVM) in a Very Short Range Air Defence (VSHORAD)/Counter-UAS role. These include the FV433 Stormer tracked reconnaissance vehicle, the tri-canister Thales Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML)-equipped platforms, and the single-canister shoulder-launched variant


Great, the missiles share alot, are compatible with the same launchers... now, as for the differentiators?
- are the guidance systems the same?
- clearly, the slower LMM can only tackle helos & UAVs

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby shark bait » 16 Aug 2016, 13:21

Starstreak was specifically designed to counter pop up helos and low aircraft.

Warhead is different, its blast frag, which someone above suggested would be more suitable for UAV's.

Guidance method is the same as Starstreak, they should be interchangeable missiles. I hope this is the start of a multipurpose weapon system perhaps Air Defence units a surface to surface capability, and maybe even IFV's an Air Defence capability. LLM has been proposed for Ajax and Warrior, so it would give them a low yield surface to surface and counter UAV capability.

Hopefully it will end up on wildcat too, it is already paid for after all.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Aug 2016, 14:24

shark bait wrote:Starstreak was specifically designed to counter pop up [attack] helos and low [-flying CAS ] aircraft.


Speed (of reaction, as well as of the missile's time to target) was of essence for Starstreak.

Hence, LLM is different as for
- its speed (of flight)
- the nature of its warhead (heavier; goes with the above?)
- and...?

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby arfah » 16 Aug 2016, 16:59

Point to note: FV433 is not a "Stormer."
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby marktigger » 16 Aug 2016, 19:09

could also take on light armour, soft skin vehicles and ships. Might be a useful adjunct to the army Wildcat and Apache

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby Gabriele » 16 Aug 2016, 20:40

arfah wrote:Point to note: FV433 is not a "Stormer."


Yep. Wonder where they got that front. Quite a long way off target...
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby mr.fred » 16 Aug 2016, 20:51

Gabriele wrote:
arfah wrote:Point to note: FV433 is not a "Stormer."


Yep. Wonder where they got that front. Quite a long way off target...

FV4333 is a Stormer.
One keystroke off.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby Gabriele » 16 Aug 2016, 22:08

The FV433 was the Abbot self-propelled howitzer. It is not even a relative.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby marktigger » 16 Aug 2016, 22:21

arfah wrote:Personally, I feel that other solutions will also be developed to defeat UAV's.

Lasers being an obvious choice although there are other methods.



going after them electronically is a better idea be that jamming or spoofing them

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby RetroSicotte » 16 Aug 2016, 22:30

The LMM news is legitimately the best news in a long while to me. Love that multi-design into it. Stormers with 4 Starstreaks and 4 LMMs will be a lovely utility device, and give the HVMs more purpose as low cost support weapons to stop expensive Javelins being used on building demolition.

It's wonderfully simplistic. What western weapons get used the least? Anti-air weapons.

What does this give expanded roles for in other areas? Anti-air platforms.

Exactly the sort of multi-purpose a stretched force needs to allow utilisation from arms that previously weren't being utilised to their equipments potential.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Aug 2016, 09:44

Quite agree.

Some punch for the light forces. I wonder if also this THOR launcher will work for both
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 40_001.jpg

A Pinzgauer is the heaviest vehicle we can airdrop (until the A400M gets a frame for doing that sort of thing; not a word heard of any such being developed/purchased).

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby shark bait » 17 Aug 2016, 09:46

It will, although they call it something else now, they have even proposed fitting it to Ajax and Warrior.
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby marktigger » 17 Aug 2016, 17:25

if the LMM/Starstreak systems are compatible and light multi launcher or multi launcher versions are suitable I would suggest that a maritime version could be an option for minor warfare vessels crewed by AR or RMR. And looking at the DS30 with LMM Piggyback you could possibly add starstreak giving a gun missile combination system that could be carried on vehicles.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby Dahedd » 13 Sep 2016, 13:00

Is there anything special happening in the highlands at the moment? Waiting for train from Forres to Aberdeen this morning when a convoy of 2 Rapier batteries + escorts drove along the A96. First time I've seen them up here. Been more than the usual air activity over the weekend as well.

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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Postby GibMariner » 13 Sep 2016, 13:48

Dahedd wrote:Is there anything special happening in the highlands at the moment? Waiting for train from Forres to Aberdeen this morning when a convoy of 2 Rapier batteries + escorts drove along the A96. First time I've seen them up here. Been more than the usual air activity over the weekend as well.

Could it be in advance of Joint/Unmanned Warrior next month?


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