Ground Based Air Defence

[Gabriele]

Around 2020. Exactly how long it will take to re-equip the four batteries planned is not clear, however.

[LordJim]

Shouldn't take too long there are only 20 something launchers being bought.

[cyrilranch]

That depends on if another defence review post Jun 9 election is called for,with the rumours about a 10 billion pound defence hole

[LordJim]

Leaks put hole as big as £20Bn

[FuNsTeR]

Leaks put hole as big as £20Bn

if this is true heads must roll, if this is true it will curtail the procurement of new military hardware that is badly needed to replace ageing hardware

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Leaks put hole as big as £20Bn

A hole that will, as ever, be filled with cuts, not additional investment.

[abc123]

Does anybody knows the price for a single CAMM missile?

[Zealot]

Land Ceptor launching platform seems to have come along way.

Land Ceptor.jpg

[Gabriele]

EMADS. It took shape alongside CAMM ER, which in the british case it is effectively fitted for but not with.

The fact that the missile platform, with all bits and pieces, can be dropped off like a DROPS platform is good. Rough footprint of a container.
Chinook lifts containers...

Being able to airlift the CAMM "pallet" under slung with Chinook would be a great additional capability. Very useful to establish air defence ashore during an amphibious operation, for example. Then, once the trucks come ashore and troops are ready to move inwards, the HX77 hooks the platform, lifts it up and there it goes.

[indeid]

EMADS. It took shape alongside CAMM ER, which in the british case it is effectively fitted for but not with.

The fact that the missile platform, with all bits and pieces, can be dropped off like a DROPS platform is good. Rough footprint of a container.
Chinook lifts containers...

Being able to airlift the CAMM "pallet" under slung with Chinook would be a great additional capability. Very useful to establish air defence ashore during an amphibious operation, for example. Then, once the trucks come ashore and troops are ready to move inwards, the HX77 hooks the platform, lifts it up and there it goes.

Is it removed like DROPS or self lowered on the legs like the Giraffe? If the base is rigid enough underslung could be an option but you would also need to lift the radar and whatever system is used for the reload as a minimum. You might also need to lift the C2 shelter to make having the capability deployed worth the effort.

Loading trials should be done as part of acceptance though, both for underslung and air transport tie downs schemes, so the option should be there.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Is it removed like DROPS or self lowered on the legs like the Giraffe?

Not to forget that we have ordered the newest Giraffe for a couple of batteries - Falklands was mentioned at the time

[indeid]

Is it removed like DROPS or self lowered on the legs like the Giraffe?

Not to forget that we have ordered the newest Giraffe for a couple of batteries - Falklands was mentioned at the time

The Giraffe is the designation radar for Land Ceptor/Sky Sabre, with the C2 system coming from Rafael. So it looks like the three components are all from different contractors, but imagine that you need at least the Radar and the Launcher to make it work. The C2 system adding networking and making it an area weapon.

Also, if it's replacing Rapier isn't that just for the Falklands? There will likely be an operational fleet on the islands and a training fleet in the UK, passed round the batteries as needed. That said with the threat level being what it is down there, you could always bring them back for a contingency operation and take a balanced risk.

The same Regiment also has the air surveillance battery with the rest of the G-AMB radars.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The C2 system adding networking and making it an area weapon.

A good point, if you think of a bde's sphere of influence being 70 km (for simplicity, a radius) then you might have assets quite dispersed, and in need of defending. The Polish buy, lately, also had an Israeli component to integrate three different missiles with different reach (the US did not sell their new control system as they haven't even fielded it in their own army].

Also, if it's replacing Rapier isn't that just for the Falklands?

I am sure you are right, but is that all the Rapiers are used for these days?

That said with the threat level being what it is down there

I would think of the contours and the available space - ideal for testing if the purchase does all those things printed on "the tin".

[Ron5]

The brochure said a slimmed down control can be added to the radar or launcher truck in lieu of the TOC dedicated truck.

[indeid]

The brochure said a slimmed down control can be added to the radar or launcher truck in lieu of the TOC dedicated truck.

Yes, giving you the local only picture, direct radar to launcher connection and no networking.

Considering the dates involved with the C2 contract award and expected retirement of Rapier I would expect that this limited mode is how it will initially be deployed, with the networking being added when the C2 box arrives.

[ArmChairCivvy]

giving you the local only picture, direct radar to launcher connection and no networking.

Out of those three, the wording of the middle one is left unclear to me?

Local picture, yes. This can be enhanced by search radar support (you know: air picture consolidation, deconflictation...) without any fire control radar with the unit itself (unit as the AD org. on the ground, or simply the truck carrying the launcher)
- the truck would in any case have the elevated box for the initial orientation of the missile, before its own radar activates or is able to capture the target in the "search cone", which naturally has a limited aspect of regard
- networking on a shoe string: eye balls networked with open comms so that a target approaching low (and by now lost to the search radar, situated in some more distant location) can be tracked and the launch timed and roughly oriented. With contours and trees, the situation differs slightly from the billiard table -like sea.

[Ron5]

Big, slow moving/stationary targets. Funny kind of Rapier successor. Press release hints not too many will be bought.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Funny kind of Rapier successor

There is a point in that. Rapiers virtue is in the name: v fast from word Go, to be capable of point defence.

On land CAMM-L is designed almost like an area defence system - without the range for it! It is v manoeuvrable once it gets going, but in effect a launch site would need either a gun point defence (which we do not have) or a distributed MANPAD zone around it, not to be taken out by tree top skimming attack helos.

To be effective, CAMM-Ls would need to be distributed across a large area and networked with the radar unit. And for resilience, singular for the radar won't do (a NASAMS command module has several, also linked to EO units as back up).

For point defence, Boeing is on the ball:
"the new AFPS.

[their] Hillman, who has seen the program evolve and innovate for two decades, said, "This approach allows for rapid conversion, a robust weapons mix and the flexibility to match the weapon with the threat." [including the price per pop]

AFPS carries what Boeing calls its "classic" Avenger weapon, the Stinger [= cheap as chips] surface-to-air missile. But it can field an array of other weapons, including the AIM-9X surface-to-air missile, which has longer range than the Stinger.

a remotely operated, lightweight 25mm gun can counter air or ground targets, Boeing said. [I.e. it is there for any surprises "popping up"]

The company says AFPS can even carry a high-energy laser to destroy [unexploded ordnance on the ground or] unmanned aircraft in the air [ for every expensively kitted-out recce drone, a dozen "fake" targets could be sent to the area to overwhelm the local AD]"
... all of that carried by a humble Humvee (we are buying its successor)

[indeid]

giving you the local only picture, direct radar to launcher connection and no networking.

Out of those three, the wording of the middle one is left unclear to me?

Local picture, yes. This can be enhanced by search radar support (you know: air picture consolidation, deconflictation...) without any fire control radar with the unit itself (unit as the AD org. on the ground, or simply the truck carrying the launcher)
- the truck would in any case have the elevated box for the initial orientation of the missile, before its own radar activates or is able to capture the target in the "search cone", which naturally has a limited aspect of regard
- networking on a shoe string: eye balls networked with open comms so that a target approaching low (and by now lost to the search radar, situated in some more distant location) can be tracked and the launch timed and roughly oriented. With contours and trees, the situation differs slightly from the billiard table -like sea.

The launcher isn't going to have a sensor on it (although an EO option is available) so to get a missile out and heading in the right direction you need a radar fix. With the G-AMB it acts as Surveillance and Fire Control in one system. Linking one launcher to one radar means that you can't fire until the radar is tracking the target, which will take a few hits. If you are networked you can hopefully cover your own blind arcs.

Track correlation over voice is really not ideal and can easily cause delay. The EO mode on Rapier is great as it is passive, but considering the need to VID it still has some delay built in. Tracking a hard turning target is easier said than done!

[indeid]

Big, slow moving/stationary targets. Funny kind of Rapier successor. Press release hints not too many will be bought.

Why a funny successor? Both wheeled, both require stationary firing so limited by set up times, both are radar guided.

Only loss is the EO tracking option, which I believe is an available option.

[ArmChairCivvy]

both are radar guided.[1]

... EO tracking option, which I believe is an available [2] option.

[1] CAMM-L does not require a fire control radar, so it is better for wider defence (with air picture, which again benefits from but does not necessitate the use of a dedicated fire control radar); whereas for true point defence Rapier (current generation) has been thought through

[2] that would be great, but have not seen any mentions of it
If you do away with niceties, like canisters around the missile launch rails, you can ram an EO tracking unit, a planar radar and a launch unit on two Humvees
http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA/LS-II-AD ... dio-3S.jpg
but of course Crotale and the not-so-famous ADATS were the first 2nd generation local AD solutions to put all of this in a tight enough package to fit onto one armour-protected vehicle... a loong time ago

[indeid]

I suppose it depends on terminology. In the case of CAMM it uses high update rate Air Surveillance radars to in effect act as the Fire Control. So there is only one radar instead of two, and since its one level of service you can do wide area sureveillance while guiding the missile to look in its search box.

You could argue that the G-AMB is overkill for a missile the range of CAMM, SAAB themselves do much smaller systems, but you do get other capabilities from the larger system.

I've always wondered about missile life when slung on the back of a 4x4!

[ArmChairCivvy]

In the case of CAMM it uses high update rate Air Surveillance radars to in effect act as the Fire Control. So there is only one radar instead of two

Absolutely. And there is one radar instead of... say, a dozen: a nice saving

You could argue that the G-AMB is overkill for a missile the range of CAMM

It is, but it will do other things, and/or you can network umpteen CAMM-L trucks to one... if you don't worry about resilience

I've always wondered about missile life when slung on the back of a 4x4!

Without speed bumps (and UK council standard ruts in the asphalt), the movement is gentler than crashing down -repeated a million times - from atop of a tall wave while the missile canisters are at sea
- the PLAN don't seem to worry about exposing their missiles to the elements; is the war so imminent that it does not matter

[Ron5]

Big, slow moving/stationary targets. Funny kind of Rapier successor. Press release hints not too many will be bought.

Why a funny successor? Both wheeled, both require stationary firing so limited by set up times, both are radar guided.

Only loss is the EO tracking option, which I believe is an available option.

Mobility, agility, cost, numbers.

There was a tracked rapier and not all versions are radar guided.

And yes, brochure mentions EO option.

[ArmChairCivvy]

agility

Camm and its cousins score on this account?