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FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
Lord Jim
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Jan 2019, 11:54

Interesting but cleverly avoids the fact that BAe sold off or closed the majority of the UK's land warfare manufacturing capability after buying most of it up.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jan 2019, 12:18

Qwerty wrote:Breaking!

Rheinmettal and BAESystems to collaborate on Cr2 upgrade and MIV

https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmet ... _16512.php


Where does it say about the CR2 upgrade?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jan 2019, 12:24

Qwerty wrote:Rheinmettal and BAESystems to collaborate on Cr2 upgrade and MIV


Absolutely the right way to go about it (Telford; heavy metal bashing + the UK HQ):
"facility in Telford, England and will sustain over 400 jobs in the UK, as well as preserve key technology and engineering skills.

Rheinmetall will purchase a 55 percent stake in the existing BAE Systems UK based combat vehicles business, with BAE Systems retaining 45 percent."

But the 'European market leader speak' totally ignores the Krupp+Nexter marriage, so now we will have
- GD
- the just announced (with BAE)
- the Franco-German JV (it is more, an incorporated company).

Lift the eyes, a little, and you have two in the US
- BAE ( a proud owner of a heavy metal bashing facility)
- and its main competitor... GD (who run a facility that is actually owned by the Federal Gvmnt!)

Is this a game of 5... to be reduced?

No, it was the German side (Rheinmetall, as for staying in AFVs) that was under pressure and went into the agreement,
RetroSicotte wrote:Where does it say about the CR2 upgrade?
What else is there, to play for?

so:
GD, Atlanticist ( :) )
BAE, Atlanticist ( :) )
KNDS, not-so-so Atlanticist

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jan 2019, 13:08

I mean more it was stated they teamed to work on the CR2, but the article does not state this at all. Given BAE is in a competing team already, it requires an acknowledgement if they are held away from this or not.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jan 2019, 13:29

That is true, and I just wonder how many times I have asked (here) the question about the duplicitousness of the MoD comms policy around its tenders, errr, one expired 3 wks ago, hey-ho :silent:
- and the fact that (defence) industrial policy is in play is not supported by any RECENT gvmnt policy... if even that

But they play it anyway... with no rules :wtf:

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Little J » 21 Jan 2019, 14:49

Is it slightly concerning that both upgrade teams are now working as one... Or do I need to take my tin foil hat off :think:

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jan 2019, 15:15

Little J wrote:Is it slightly concerning that both upgrade teams are now working as one... Or do I need to take my tin foil hat off :think:

There is no confirmation that they are yet.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby tomuk » 21 Jan 2019, 16:44

I think this is due to a combination of two things, one the BAE Systems consortium has lost the upgrade contract and two RheinMetall need somewhere to build the boxer for MIV.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Ron5 » 21 Jan 2019, 17:54

What about CV90?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 21 Jan 2019, 18:04

Ron5 wrote:What about CV90?

Nothing to do with the UK end of things. Thats all Sweden.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Jan 2019, 18:56

Agreed, this is all about the MIV/Boxer rather then anything to do with the CR2 upgrade programme. I wish the Defence Select Committee would have a session asking those involved what is the state of the Army's AFV re-equipment plans as many seem to be up in the air or moving so slowly they almost appear to be standing still.

As for proposals for the CR2 upgrade, I still think we could do a lot worse than getting second hand Leopard 2 and having them upgraded either by the OEM or Rheinmetall who have their own upgrade package. Given what the Poles paid for theirs including the upgrade, spares and so on it would be interesting to see if we could get enough vehicles to meet the Army's needs from roughly the existing programme budget. Around 120 should do? Then we wait for the next generation platform to come along either from the US or Europe in the 2030s.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RunningStrong » 21 Jan 2019, 20:44

Little J wrote:Is it slightly concerning that both upgrade teams are now working as one... Or do I need to take my tin foil hat off :think:

3 of the 4 teams bidding Land 400 Ph3 would then be "working together" on CR2 LEP. I don't believe that for a second.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jan 2019, 23:51

Lord Jim wrote: have a session asking those involved what is the state of the Army's AFV re-equipment plans as many seem to be up in the air or moving so slowly they almost appear to be standing still.

:lol:
Lord Jim wrote: Given what the Poles paid for theirs including the upgrade

- nothing for the tanks ( a motley collection)
- and e 5 mln to get something workable out of them ( per piece)

Ron5 wrote:What about CV90?

Let's play this one for the 11th time ( a first for this forum? Where is that Naval Architect that used to preach 'Religion' on TD... has he retired; you know building ships and doing the military fitting out cannot be separated... called modularity :P these days )
- the bid was the best one
- BAE had "solemn" undertakings with various host countries (following their take-over, or as the blue-eyed 'natives' saw it: a "stewardship" of AFV manufacturing)
- they were 'torn'
- they switched from Sweden to UK (manufacturing %) in the last moment (or was it after the decision?)
- that was not good enough
- the rest is history :wave:

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Ron5 » 22 Jan 2019, 00:33

Dunno what you are talking about, I was inquiring whether the status of CV90 was altered by the tie up between Bae & Rheinmetal.

Seems to be unaffected was the answer I got.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Jan 2019, 00:55

Ron5 wrote:I was inquiring [...]

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Is this a game of 5... to be reduced?

No, it was the German side (Rheinmetall, as for staying in AFVs) that was under pressure and went into the agreement,

RetroSicotte wrote:
Where does it say about the CR2 upgrade?

What else is there, to play for?

so:
GD, Atlanticist ( :) )
BAE, Atlanticist ( :) )
KNDS, not-so-so Atlanticist


the tie up between Bae & Rheinmetal.


Sorry about not seeing what your question :lol: was about. A lot of the little bear with a little brain quotes have been flying about... lately

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Jan 2019, 09:29

Lord Jim wrote:As for proposals for the CR2 upgrade, I still think we could do a lot worse than getting second hand Leopard 2 and having them upgraded either by the OEM or Rheinmetall who have their own upgrade package. Given what the Poles paid for theirs including the upgrade, spares and so on it would be interesting to see if we could get enough vehicles to meet the Army's needs from roughly the existing programme budget. Around 120 should do? Then we wait for the next generation platform to come along either from the US or Europe in the 2030s.

Second hand from who though?

The only second hand 2A5 or higher on the market was from the Netherlands as far as I am aware, and all theirs were bought already. Germany is bringing their own 2A6s back into service, so they aren't available.

There is zero worth getting the ones before the 2A5, their base hull is riddled with huge errors that the 2A5 (partially) fixed and are a massive mishmash of minor variations that have cost the Poles as much as the Challenger upgrade program alone just to try and fix to bring up to a certain standard.

Would need a lot more than 120 as well. 200 minimum really to have a robust fleet depth. Heck, even France is finding 200 isn't enough to maintain worthwhile readiness levels of a certain weight, and they only get away with that because they have another 206 in storage, similar to ourselves to draw from when needed.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Jan 2019, 10:31

RetroSicotte wrote:cost the Poles as much as the Challenger upgrade program alone just to try and fix to bring up to a certain standard.


e 5 mln a piece vs. our £700 mln divided by X ( the MoD being very coy about what "X" will be)

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Jan 2019, 11:14

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:cost the Poles as much as the Challenger upgrade program alone just to try and fix to bring up to a certain standard.


e 5 mln a piece vs. our £700 mln divided by X ( the MoD being very coy about what "X" will be)

That 5 mil apiece is only the tip of the iceberg for them, unfortunately. They've had to pay a lot more to constantly fix problems related to their fleet being made up of "whatevers" from the old A4 variations.

For example, the A4 had three separate armour models, two separate hull models, three separate transmission layouts (despite having the same one!), two separate turret ring allowances, countless variations in internal systems from major to minor.

It's been a complete mess.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Jan 2019, 11:36

You are obviously more "glued in" on this than I am; why did the German contract to get their tanks (already sold back to the manufacturer, for export) back into service stretch for so long... 3-4 years?

I am suspecting that the rounds that only the A7 can handle have something to do with it
... and that could have something to do with the latest Ch2 LEP news, as well :idea:

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Jan 2019, 12:10

ArmChairCivvy wrote:You are obviously more "glued in" on this than I am; why did the German contract to get their tanks (already sold back to the manufacturer, for export) back into service stretch for so long... 3-4 years?

I am suspecting that the rounds that only the A7 can handle have something to do with it
... and that could have something to do with the latest Ch2 LEP news, as well :idea:

I'm not aware of a round that only the A7 can use. Maybe you know something I've missed there, but the DM63 can be used in any Rm120 I think. It's basically a DM53 with changed internals to the round. As I said, maybe there's something I dunno about its other ammunition. (Data linked one to the A7 perhaps?)

The time I don't have a concrete answer on, other than perhaps being a mixture of politics (keep the place in work after the big Gulf A7 contract fell through) and reduced capacity. German Army sure isn't in a rush for it, with their budget problems.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 22 Jan 2019, 13:32

Spotted this on Twitter:

Image

Rheinmetall's Challenger 2 LEP technology demonstrator

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Jan 2019, 14:18

That would be a Rm120 L55 smoothbore, that'd be!

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby CameronPerson » 22 Jan 2019, 14:25

Bit more info on the above posted image via twitter




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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby MikeKiloPapa » 22 Jan 2019, 15:30

RetroSicotte wrote:
Ron5 wrote:What about CV90?

Nothing to do with the UK end of things. Thats all Sweden.


Yes its does. BAE UK still control the purse strings and get the final say on development of new vehicles and systems. A fact that has hamstrung and driven the Swedes crazy multiple times at least since the introduction of the CV90 MKIII .

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby MikeKiloPapa » 22 Jan 2019, 15:36

Ron5 wrote:What about CV90?


That is a damn good question. I'm guessing right now the management at Hägglunds and maybe also Bofors is frantically scrambling to find potential new owners.....everything to avoid coming under kraut influence......because the Swedes know all to well what happens when under german ownership!


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