AS-90 Self-Propelled Gun (Army)

[marktigger]

we are looking at studies carried out by the israelis after the 1973 war where they were up against armoured forces equipped with both Warsaw Pact and Western armour from light to heavy.

[RetroSicotte]

Generally the answer is the vast majority factor.

105mm's are not going to be effective against MBTs. Then again, neither are 155mm's really. At least not on splash.

On direct impact, both 105 and 155, be it from an L118 or the AS-90 (thread topic!) would absolutely annihilate any tank in the world. Tanks only have very light armour from above, often times less than 60-70mm of steel alone.

For the vast majority of vehicles though, it's APC and IFV, generally in a range of 20-35 tons. Those an L118 can certainly deal damage to on near splashes, an AS090 would devastate.

[ArmChairCivvy]

APC and IFV, generally in a range of 20-35 tons. Those an L118 can certainly deal damage to on near splashes, an AS090 would devastate.

I don't remember from which (multiple) sources I quote, but could we say that for mobility kills or penetrating the sides with splinters the differerence is from 15 m vs from 30 m?
- when I find the picture of AW (MLRS) warhead effect from pre-frag tungsten vs 155 mm splinters on that kind of armour (excepting frontal plates), I will post it. Again from memory, the former scores a hit density of 4-10 times higher (which leaves the 105mm as a peashooter both on the account of density and penetration - but still good against infantry and soft skinned vehicles).

Now, where do you generally find jam packed soft-skinned logs columns? Well outside of 105 mm range (and often that of a 155 mm, esp. if it happens to be an AS90)
- welcome AW, with the range and simultaneous impact advantage (a battery firing in quick succession). Oh, wait! We don't have any...

[marktigger]

105mm doesn't lend itself to some of the Value added submunition rounds that 155mm and MLRS have had like ADAM or the jammer submunitions.
if a 105mm Light gun is having to do direct anti tank its in the wrong place. RA learnt that lesson in the western desert in WW2 where the 25pdr was one of the few guns capable of engaging certain german tanks until the 17pdr came along.

[ArmChairCivvy]

105mm doesn't lend itself to some of the Value added submunition rounds that 155mm and MLRS have had like ADAM or the jammer submunitions.

Exactly, the laws of physics apply, just like in mortars: 81 mm vs 120 mm... what is worthwile (so that you have some "payload" left on target.

[marktigger]

105mm doesn't lend itself to some of the Value added submunition rounds that 155mm and MLRS have had like ADAM or the jammer submunitions.

Exactly, the laws of physics apply, just like in mortars: 81 mm vs 120 mm... what is worthwile (so that you have some "payload" left on target.

81 vs 120mm infantry Mortar effectiveness vs portability of both weapon and ammunition becomes a big issue.

but in the payload stakes its a huge issue on the 76mm Otomalara Vs 127mm Otomelara argument when it comes to NGS.....Personally its a shame they couldn't get Navalised AS90 to maturity.

[marktigger]

105mm doesn't lend itself to some of the Value added submunition rounds that 155mm and MLRS have had like ADAM or the jammer submunitions.

Exactly, the laws of physics apply, just like in mortars: 81 mm vs 120 mm... what is worthwile (so that you have some "payload" left on target.

81 vs 120mm infantry Mortar effectiveness vs portability of both weapon and ammunition becomes a big issue.

but in the payload stakes its a huge issue on the 76mm Otomalara Vs 127mm Otomelara argument when it comes to NGS.....Personally its a shame they couldn't get Navalised AS90 to maturity.

[SKB]

[marktigger]

nice video just a shame we are loosing them so fast

[bobp]

Yes indeed good video, hard to believe they are almost thirty years old and still going.

[marktigger]

Yes indeed good video, hard to believe they are almost thirty years old and still going.

why? they are a good field artillery piece and they can last a very long time. How many 25 pounders or M2a2's are there still going strong even though they are WW2 manufactured.
IF however BaE decides it needs some business and withdraws manufacturer support what is the replacement option........Hmmmm let me think M109 and Archer.....let me think who manufactures them

FH77 BAe Bofors in sweden
M109 United Defence LP.....Part of BAe

will they be manufactured in UK probably not

[SKB]

The 50,000th simulated round has been fired from an AS90 Turret Trainer signalling savings of approximately £125 million to the Ministry of Defence and the UK taxpayer

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/firi ... gs-of-125m

[SKB]

19 Regiment Royal Artillery are currently deployed in Estonia where they continue to strengthen their capabilities alongside other NATO nations.
Scottish Gunner Bombardier Alan Summers, who commands the powerful AS90, tells us what opportunities the British Army has provided him.

[Lord Jim]

Looking at the recent headlines in Jane's Slovakia has unveiled its new wheeled 8x8 Eva 155/52mm Self Propelled Gun. Weighing in at 28 tons fully loaded including an armoured cab for the crew, it is capable of being airlifted by the A400M. Seems like an option to replace the AS-90 with a longer range SPG and also to equip the "Strike" Brigades if they are ever actually formed.

[RetroSicotte]

BAE Systems pursues extended range 155 mm ammunition

http://www.janes.com/article/81436/bae- ... ammunition

New ammunition for the AS-90. To sum upe, it's an unguided base bleed round that puts the range from about 25km to "over" 30km on the AS-90.

Useful, handy, but ultimately not close to what is needed. Modern artillery peers are set to look at over 70km by this point. (The US Army has been particularly eager to push that out to around 100km in some form counter the increase in Russian artillery accurate range use.)

[Antipod]

Time to look at the 52 caliber barrel again?

[RetroSicotte]

Time to look at the 52 caliber barrel again?

Said for a while that the UK ought to look at a transfer of trade with Poland. Acquire their Krab upgrade for the AS-90 turret (given they ARE AS-90 turrets, just with modernised systems and an L52 gun) in exchange for something like CAMM.

[mr.fred]

Wouldn’t it make more sense to make sure that we have the right targetting and control to support the ones we’ve got before getting hung up on single-figure top trumps. Again.

[RetroSicotte]

Wouldn’t it make more sense to make sure that we have the right targetting and control to support the ones we’ve got before getting hung up on single-figure top trumps. Again.

They're already accurate and well controlled.

The issue is that none of that matters if you need to advance 50km under artillery fire before you can even engage. The US Army has learned this very specifically from Ukraine, I posted a video of a US Army briefing on the situation there some months back. This isn't top trumps, this is a very specific identified issue, one that has caused the US Army to completely about turn on its artillery procurement priorities.

That doesn't happen without good reason. They haven't done as big a shift as this since the MRAP rush in the wake of losing hundreds of lives to IEDs spooking them.

[ArmChairCivvy]

turret (given they ARE AS-90 turrets, just with modernised systems and an L52 gun)

They are, indeed. The project took 20 yrs, the chassis was changed from indigenous to Korean, only the third gun could be made to work with the turret... can't remember n:o 1, but Nexter was swapped out, in favour of a German one.

It paid off for the Poles, the end product is a very good one (the Koreans used license-built AS90 suspensions... so it's not only the Braveheart turret on it, but also something "in it" that makes for a good platform).

[RetroSicotte]

They are, indeed. The project took 20 yrs, the chassis was changed from indigenous to Korean, only the third gun could be made to work with the turret... can't remember n:o 1, but Nexter was swapped out, in favour of a German one.

It paid off for the Poles, the end product is a very good one (the Koreans used license-built AS90 suspensions... so it's not only the Braveheart turret on it, but also something "in it" that makes for a good platform).

Aye, rough production, but the gun is there, and works. No reason it couldn't fit in an AS-90. Gun replacement alone would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

I remember seeing something about that the Royal Artillery wanted all its 155mm guns in future to be common, but good luck with that. M777 for ground sure, but that's not in a vehicle yet. The M109s new gun however is based on the M777, so perhaps another option there to seek commonality.

Frankly shocked the British Army never acquired M777, since the UK builds it!

[ArmChairCivvy]

The M109s new gun however is based on the M777, so perhaps another option there to seek commonality.

They have modified the parallel version to our LG, to do 50 km; linked to it on some thread (to humour LJ ).
- that one is towed, though

[ArmChairCivvy]

Why the US never bought LEO (by Denel) for their airportable formations is beyond me (we could get some for Strike bdes and 16X, a Boxer is heftier than the LAV III), put 30 km into a system that has a 105 mm logistics tail:

"The development the 105mm LAV III Light Self-Propelled Howitzer (LSPH) has taken another leap forward with the certification of the system as safe for manned firing tests. To date, the system has been remotely fired. The LSPH is a joint project between General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS), Denel Land Systems (DLS) and Rheinmetall Denel Munition (RDM).

Work on the development resumed last year after the cancellation of the US Army’s NLOS-C (non-line-of-sight, i.e indirect fire, cannon) programme the year before. DLS in a statement say the LSPH during the week of July 4
[Written by defenceWeb, Monday, 18 July 2011 ]
fired high explosive projectiles at a maximum range of 31km from a manned turret at Armscor's Alkantpan Test range in the Northern Cape."

“This marks a significant advance in maturing the technology of this revolutionary artillery system,” the statement added of the weapon that has the logistic footprint of a 105mm howitzer but the range and terminal performance of a 155mm system, “but with better precision”.

Work on the 58-calibre LSPH started during the 1990s"

[RetroSicotte]

They have modified the parallel version to our LG, to do 50 km; linked to it on some thread (to humour LJ ).
- that one is towed, though

Yeah I recall their extended range towed one though, but there's a new gun being developed from the M777 for the M109. I'll ask someone when I'm home for some info, I know he has a few images. Very impressive looking.

[ArmChairCivvy]

there's a new gun being developed from the M777 for the M109

About time, too. They spent so much on modernising them, without touching the gun. I quote further, from the same article (is defenceweb from RSA, by any chance?):
"The M0125A2 IHE PFF projectile has a lethal area of 1600m2, “which is 66% larger than the typical lethal area of the 155mm M107 projectile”. The safety distance for the XM0125A2 IHE PFF projectile is typically 50% smaller than that of the M107, which makes the 105mm PFF projectile more suitable for close fire-support. The M0125A2 IHE PFF projectile achieved US Army Safety certification in September 2008 as part of the Foreign Comparative Test Programme sponsored by the US Department of Defence. “Once the M0125A2 was Safety Certified, it was given the US designation M1130 for the fixed base bleed projectile, and M1131 for the fixed boat tail projectile. Both the M1130 and M1131 projectiles are in the final stages of Type Classification, a process that has taken almost a decade.”

The Igala range of projectiles also include a natural fragmenting HE and IHE projectile, a visual illumination carrier projectile, a bi-spectral screening smoke carrier projectile and an infra-red illumination projectile. “These projectiles are ballistically matched (as it fires with the same range tables)."

All these wonderful things happened in quick succession, after Denel ceded mgt control of their munitions division to the Germans
- at that point the idea was to put the factory to the UK
- RSA being a bit of a pariah (still) and Germany not granting exports license, at least too easily
- of course our MoD put paid to that by not buying anything (they were under fire from NAO, who said that £22 bn in stocks that go "bang" is way-yy too much. The accountants can do % calculation on their mobiles, applying whatever arbitrary interest rate to stocks held, but they have no idea how much controlled refreshing of those stocks could save... not all elements time expire. They don't have any chemists in NAO, I presume ))