UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 17 Dec 2018, 12:54

Generic Vehicle Architecture (GVA)?
Def Stan 23-09.
https://www.omgwiki.org/dds/sites/defau ... pdf#page11

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Dec 2018, 14:11

mr.fred wrote:GVA,
Def Stan 23-09
Yep, thx!
- and this was going to be the first step, for all of the 600 or so planned
... diversion thereafter, as to what was going to be fitted (also: replaced?)

What makes this "path dependency" interestin is that not all formations were going to get Ajax "Joint Fires"
... and that the Warrior would not be fully capable of that, even upgraded

So, the trials showed that two Warriors, working as a pair and differently fitted out, could easily do that. Guess what (next)? Just like in the Brexit conversations:
Pardon?
Yes, two.
Non, non, non :D

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby RunningStrong » 17 Dec 2018, 20:25

mr.fred wrote:track

Bin. Rubber band replacement.

mr.fred wrote:Road wheels

Bin. Cheap to replace.

mr.fred wrote:Idler

Bin. Cheap to replace.

mr.fred wrote:suspension

Keep. Major overhaul.

mr.fred wrote:drive train ( engine, transmission, sprockets, and associated components)

Bin. Game has moved on with power efficiency.

mr.fred wrote:electrical systems

Bin. Major upgrade needed for modern systems.

mr.fred wrote:electronic systems

BURN IT ALL!

mr.fred wrote:seats, stowage

Bin. Mineblast seats all round.

mr.fred wrote:doors

Bin. Upgrade with better armour.

mr.fred wrote:hatches

Bin. Upgrade with better armour.

mr.fred wrote:vision devices

Bin.

mr.fred wrote:mechanical controls etc?

Overhaul.

mr.fred wrote:Can you justify your choices?

Nope.

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 1647
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby bobp » 17 Dec 2018, 21:35

mr.fred wrote: Hull structure stays


As i understand it some Hulls have issues with the aluminium, and these are not repairable. Only a small quantity though.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Dec 2018, 23:43

bobp wrote:some Hulls

+
bobp wrote:Only a small quantity though

A good thing we went into this exercise with some 600 hulls... we can come out with a good half of that number?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3292
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Dec 2018, 01:08

Just out of interest and aimed at those who know a lot more than me, what was the original OSD for the Warrior? Was there one? of is it the fate of all AFV to be like the FV430 series and live forever? I do find it interesting as to how the Army decides what stays and what goes. The FV340 series is still going, like the Energiser Bunny, yet the younger CVR(T) family is on the way out.

As for Warrior, I think all efforts, if we are keeping it, should go into the WCSP and the whole BASV idea should be binned. Given the size of the future Army, a combination of both the Ajax support variant and those from the MIV/Boxer programme should be sufficient to meet the Army's needs.

The new Turret is going to give the Warrior a world class punch of a AGV when it comes to guns, being a good balance between size, weight and performance. Few other can match it in all those areas. I still think at least some should have an integral ATGE and the Turret has the capability to carry the Javelin as was show at a previous Defence Exhibition.

Does the WCSP have any commonality with Ajax. Having a common power train would have been a good idea as far as joined up thinking is concerned as would a common turret.

Finally can someone remind us exactly what is being done to the standard Warrior IFV as part of the WCSP please.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Dec 2018, 07:55

Lord Jim wrote:FV430 series [...] is still going, like the Energiser Bunny, yet the younger CVR(T) family is on the way out.

- its the kit on them
- the "std" Bulldogs drove straight into a garage, never to be seen again, despite 500 being fixed to a good technical (and protection) standard... don't know how many of those add-on Israeli kits were actually purchased, though

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 18 Dec 2018, 16:36

Lord Jim wrote:Finally can someone remind us exactly what is being done to the standard Warrior IFV as part of the WCSP please.

The oft-quoted description is:
WMPS, a standard fitting system for additional protection, and desperately looking for a better acronym.
WFLIP, basically the turret, and
WEEA, which is the nebulous one that involves messing around with what’s in the hull.

The pictures up-thread show that the front right corner of the hull has been enlarged and that the driver has the three periscope hatch used on UORs and Desert Warrior, but now it has a hat, which might be a camera. The blurb on the pictures mentions crew station displays and intelligent power management, which would imply some modification to the electrics.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/dsei_20 ... _2017.html
Notes that the environmental control system has been updated ( If memory serves air con was one of the UORs?) and that a new generator is there as well. It also mentions that the dismounts have access to the situational awareness system, so there is a display in the back?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3292
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Dec 2018, 22:01

Cheers for that.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Dec 2018, 07:07

mr.fred wrote:crew station displays and intelligent power management, which would imply some modification to the electrics.


Aside from the displays themselves, the rest 'compliments' of GVA (which was a mandatory rqrmnt).
- it is like 'apps' running by utilising the services from an operating system (a rough analogy)

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 19 Feb 2019, 22:02

Some news:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3c7 ... c7c5b26/44

7 dismounts, 70 rounds ready to fire and more cameras than you can shake a stick at, but 2023 before the first 20 are available

Luke jones
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 11:13

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Luke jones » 20 Feb 2019, 17:51

mr.fred wrote:Some news:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3c7 ... c7c5b26/44

7 dismounts, 70 rounds ready to fire and more cameras than you can shake a stick at, but 2023 before the first 20 are available

This programme seems to have been going on since the ice age. Good to see it will come but 2023? Hells bells.

Any ideas why the delay?

Cash issues as ever?

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Feb 2019, 18:44

Luke jones wrote:2023? Hells bells.

Any ideas why the delay?
As the AI Bdes and the first Strike Bde (standing up in that year, allegedly) will need to "swap" rgmnts, may be that gives the thin veneer of an excuse
- the other possibility is that there is quite a number of them currently going through a heavy testing prgrm, in order to get some reliable MTBF estimates; there was some speculation that bad results would totally debase the VFM argument - the range estimate for how much more money over the life cycle for the by now fairly small fleet is somewhere there upthread... I know bcz I put it there, but searching is not the simplest thing here - and thereby pull the rag from under the prgrm at this late moment

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby RunningStrong » 20 Feb 2019, 18:46

Luke jones wrote:
mr.fred wrote:Some news:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3c7 ... c7c5b26/44

7 dismounts, 70 rounds ready to fire and more cameras than you can shake a stick at, but 2023 before the first 20 are available

This programme seems to have been going on since the ice age. Good to see it will come but 2023? Hells bells.

Any ideas why the delay?

Cash issues as ever?

Given that there has been long, long ongoing manufacturing contract discussions I would say that 2023 is somewhat optimistic.

Luke jones
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 11:13

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Luke jones » 20 Feb 2019, 18:52

RunningStrong wrote:
Luke jones wrote:
mr.fred wrote:Some news:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3c7 ... c7c5b26/44

7 dismounts, 70 rounds ready to fire and more cameras than you can shake a stick at, but 2023 before the first 20 are available

This programme seems to have been going on since the ice age. Good to see it will come but 2023? Hells bells.

Any ideas why the delay?

Cash issues as ever?

Given that there has been long, long ongoing manufacturing contract discussions I would say that 2023 is somewhat optimistic.


Thats a wow moment right there.
Absolutely glacial movement of a programme.

The slowest ever?????

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3292
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Feb 2019, 01:48

If Boxer and CR2CEP go at the same rate we might get them by 2030. It has to be a funding issue. Mind you we have waited do long another four year doesn't seem that much.

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 22 Feb 2019, 11:59

Compare and contrast: original Warrior was 8 years contract award to in service, Puma IFV was 13 years from contract award to start of production. ASCOD was 14 years from contract to service. Warrior CSP is currently 8 years in, so 2023 in-service date would be 12 years.
That said, it's only an upgrade compared to the others being full vehicles.

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2444
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Feb 2019, 13:34

On the other hand, the UK land industry is hopelessly small compared to places like Germany or France. So the elongated time even for just an upgrade makes "sense".

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 22 Feb 2019, 14:48

RetroSicotte wrote:On the other hand, the UK land industry is hopelessly small compared to places like Germany or France. So the elongated time even for just an upgrade makes "sense".

At the same time German requirement for the Puma is 350 - a similar number to that being talked about for the Warrior.
The numbers bandied about for The UKs requirement for the Boxer range from equal to the German buy to more than triple it.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Feb 2019, 16:10

RetroSicotte wrote:the UK land industry is hopelessly small compared to places like Germany

Aren't the turrets coming from Germany, despite good-old anglo-saxon names of all contractors (... but not sub-contractors)?
- hull Spanish-Austrian
- engine & transmission German
- gun Anglo-French
- turret ... how many people (companies) are on that "job"?

Are the sensors from the UK (as there has been some effort to standardise across various AFVs)?

One tends to lose interest in these jobs that are stretched like a rubber band - until they break... and you never hear of the project again.

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 22 Feb 2019, 16:17

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:the UK land industry is hopelessly small compared to places like Germany

Aren't the turrets coming from Germany, despite good-old anglo-saxon names of all contractors (... but not sub-contractors)?
- hull Spanish-Austrian
- engine & transmission German
- gun Anglo-French
- turret ... how many people (companies) are on that "job"?

Are the sensors from the UK (as there has been some effort to standardise across various AFVs)?

One tends to lose interest in these jobs that are stretched like a rubber band - until they break... and you never hear of the project again.

You’re thinking of Ajax

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10419
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Feb 2019, 17:17

mr.fred wrote:You’re thinking of Ajax


Bloody right... talk about :D losing interest (focus)!

That talk about drive train being added to the prgrm (now the upgrade is out of scope?)... would there be any increase in commonality across platforms?
- when the talk was about getting 600 (of 'all sorts') at a mln £s apiece... the prgrm sounded like a v good idea
- well, the testing must end some day - and we will get to hear (may be they will cut the number again, to 'stay on track' moneywise)

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1949
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Gabriele » 22 Feb 2019, 17:22

Most of the delay is due to the turret. LM initially said they could make do by cutting the front off the existing one and build on it. They completed manned firing trials by the end of 2014.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, despite completing the firing trials it was decided the solution was actually unworkable and a whole newly built turret has entered the frame. As BAE had been saying all along, by the way.

Initially they hoped it would still be able to use the results of firing trials already done, but even this proved impossible and they have had to go back to square one. Unmanned firings completed last year; manned trials to go.

Meanwhile they have to run X thousand kilometers of reliability growth trials. 5000 + so far, on a requirement for...?
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby RunningStrong » 22 Feb 2019, 17:27

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Aren't the turrets coming from Germany, despite good-old anglo-saxon names of all contractors (... but not sub-contractors)?
- hull Spanish-Austrian
- engine & transmission German
- gun Anglo-French
- turret ... how many people (companies) are on that "job"?

Ajax turret is RLS metal work, completed by LM

LM turret is LM metalwork, with significant input from Ultra Electronics UK, Instro UK and Kent optics. They also build quite a few boxes internally. I don't believe Thales UK are involved any more.

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1949
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Warrior Armoured Vehicle Variants (British Army)

Postby Gabriele » 22 Feb 2019, 17:42

Thales UK is still involved as i understand the commander's sight is still a BGTI, while the gunner as the CRONUS by Instro. Might also be involved in other internal things to the turret.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum


Return to “British Army”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests