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Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

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Voldemort
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Voldemort » 06 May 2019, 18:05

Frenchie wrote:Absolutely :thumbup: , although I do not know if this vehicle is small enough to be transported by C-130 :oops:

Sisu GTP then?
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Frenchie
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Frenchie » 06 May 2019, 19:17

It is not right to advertise for vehicles of its own country :D

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 May 2019, 22:08

However when we refer to the UK we should really be looking at the A400 as the base platform for tactical airlift, not the C-130 anymore.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 May 2019, 21:20

Frenchie wrote:It is not right to advertise for vehicles of its own country :D
:lol: :lol:

We know
... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs :) )

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Little J » 30 May 2019, 12:21

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or else where, so maybe a mod can move it if needs be.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby RetroSicotte » 30 May 2019, 13:51

ArmChairCivvy wrote:... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs :) )

Most ice cream trucks that have to work the east end of Glasgow may disagree. :P

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Mercator » 07 Jul 2019, 02:21

Not sure if this info is already out there, but apparently the Bushmaster will be built at a Thales facility in Glasgow, if selected for MRV-P.

The Australian Defence Minister apparently plans to visit:
https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/min ... france-and

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Lord Jim » 10 Sep 2019, 16:50

Although the picture is of the HMT I like the idea behind a 4x4/6x6 that can be carried inside a CH-47, perhaps 16AA should have a closer look?
https://www.janes.com/article/90964/con ... y-dsei19d1

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Caribbean » 15 Sep 2019, 23:10

The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Oct 2019, 12:12

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby RetroSicotte » 04 Oct 2019, 13:23

Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpower.com/2019/02/14/re-thinking-the-uks-multi-role-vehicle-protected-mrv-p-programme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.

Yet again short term decisions to save pennies ultimately end up spending more in the long term.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Oct 2019, 13:57

May be I've missed it, but the Batch2 MRVP (the bigger one)... is the selection still running?
- also the plan was to buy what is immediately needed (a hundred and a half; and about as many later)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Oct 2019, 15:14

RetroSicotte wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpower.com/2019/02/14/re-thinking-the-uks-multi-role-vehicle-protected-mrv-p-programme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.

Yet again short term decisions to save pennies ultimately end up spending more in the long term.


I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country but with the large increase in price and most likely further increase it starts to tip the logic back towards a UK built design.

The other good thing about choosing Foxhound would be that it’s modular set would make spiral evolution much easier like with the Boxer.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:May be I've missed it, but the Batch2 MRVP (the bigger one)... is the selection still running?
- also the plan was to buy what is immediately needed (a hundred and a half; and about as many later)


My understanding was that the objective of this project was to replace all Panthers, Huskies, LR RWMIK, snatch LR, Pinzgauer and eventually Foxhounds. Yes they’ll be ordered in batches but the over all large order giving a continued build line would bring unit cost down compared to the small order and rush job of the UOR.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Oct 2019, 15:50

With "the bigger one" I meant this part of the prgrm
Multi Role Vehicle — Protected (MRV-P) Troop Carrying Vehicle (TCV) and Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance (FPBFA)

and why would they - the limited number - be ordered in 'two halves'?
- I guess to stretch the monies; the ambulance rqrnnt being more urgent (reading between the lines)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby RetroSicotte » 04 Oct 2019, 16:01

Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country

But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"

It seems like they just optimistically assumed something that almost never happens would happen.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby RunningStrong » 04 Oct 2019, 16:07

Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpower.com/2019/02/14/re-thinking-the-uks-multi-role-vehicle-protected-mrv-p-programme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

Foxhound will escalate further due to:
- The UOR fleet and build standard has to be upgraded to core standards
- The production line would need to be restarted at a new location

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Dahedd » 04 Oct 2019, 16:15

As a civvie looking in expanding on the Foxhound & Supacat ranges has ways seemed like a no brainer, but what do I know.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Oct 2019, 16:21

RetroSicotte wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country

But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"

It seems like they just optimistically assumed something that almost never happens would happen.


Completely agree here

RunningStrong wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpower.com/2019/02/14/re-thinking-the-uks-multi-role-vehicle-protected-mrv-p-programme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

Foxhound will escalate further due to:
- The UOR fleet and build standard has to be upgraded to core standards
- The production line would need to be restarted at a new location


Ok so let look at cost then, Foxhound under a 350 order came in at around £800k per unit, if the costs of changes ( would this add cost since they will be made before build and not after ) and costs of setting up prediction line bring it back up to £1m per unit ( if production cost can’t be agree from treasury or DTI under a much more generous Saj )

JLTV cost already increased from $450k to $700k ( £550k ) per unit, this is expected to rise again along with addition cost to put right “supposed” issues, I could safely assumed IMO end costs will be around £700k per unit.

Now with Saj seeming to be more open to increase spending accord the board along with him being more interested in investing in British manufacturing could a deal we made to allow some of the extra cost to be brought back ? I am more positive of that now than with his predasesor.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Oct 2019, 16:31

The "Problems" found by the US Army and its possible reduction in orders needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Yes they have realised that the they do not need to replace all of their Humvees. There might be problems with how the JLTV is laid out making less efficient as a TOW launch platform, and the elephant in the room, the US Army is desperate to move funds into its other high priority programmes and some believe the JLTV is a platform design for the last war, Afghanistan. IF the US Military reduce their orders or even raise the possibility of doing so, the price per vehicle is going to go up in theory.

With the UK we are getting into the same ole mess we have done with nearly every Army platform for decades. We start second guessing ourselves, nudging the goal post a little bit one way and then another, all before the big decision has to be made. We change the number of units to be purchase up and down, slow down deliveries to keep to yearly budgets at so on.

The Army desperately need to be re equipped throughout its formations and though some progress is being made, the result will be the usual, we will not but enough, nor the needed variants. The Army needs more resources to procure the necessary platform it need to replace the multitude of old and/or worn out platforms still in service and reduce the number of platform types. The shame is that in the grand scheme of the Defence Budget, the funding needed to d this is small compared to the cost of the major programmes being run by the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.

So the Army needs to just get on with it and but the bloody platforms its needs and carry out the upgrades to the platforms it is retaining. Get them into service now, even if only in vanilla form and have a mapped out development programme for them in the years to come. They Army is spoilt for choice for platforms to meet the MRV(P) requirement, they need to stop thinking too hard.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Oct 2019, 16:46

JLTV is in production right now so costs are well understood. Exchange rates would be the biggest issue.

However isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Oct 2019, 17:10

Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]
- one option (that I have not previously seen) is the Javelin/ autocannon combo, last page (p.36) in Oct. issue of Desider

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Oct 2019, 18:30

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]
- one option (that I have not previously seen) is the Javelin/ autocannon combo, last page (p.36) in Oct. issue of Desider


This is one reason I keep coming back to Foxhound as it’s modular design allows for an easier evolution path for different situations down the line.

If we’re going to look at auto cannons on light vehicle one that has grabbed my eye was the Panhard Crab. It can be fitted out for Reece ops along with a 30mm chain gun with “bolt on” extras this along with its low profile and manoverbility sets it up as an ideal urban warfare vehicle to me along with fire support for lighter forces.

Ron5 wrote:JLTV is in production right now so costs are well understood. Exchange rates would be the biggest issue.

However isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?


This is another reason to look at UK build, over the next few years we could see the exchange rate fluctuate quite abit before settling closer to $1.30 odd instead of the $1.50 odd previously expected IMO. UK build would shield us from a good portion of this.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby SD67 » 21 Nov 2019, 21:07

I’m sceptical about JLTV. US commercial vehicles have a reputation - mass produced down to a price and you need to buy 3 to keep 2 on the road. Maybe JLTV is different but I’d want to see the total cost of ownership.
What commonality does it have with the rest of the fleet? A new stand alone platform with its own logistics. And it’s the same footprint as a Bushmaster so whys it needed?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Nov 2019, 21:20

One of the key drivers for the JLTV was for it to be more reliable and require less maintenance with the time between overhaul being far greater than the vehicles it will partially replace in the US Military. Yes when work is required it is more involved that its predecessors but you have to do t he work les often.

As for commonality, well it is the same as asking for the Boxer to have commonality with the Ajax. The possible UK fleet size really negates the need for any commonality, and as with all new vehicles including MBTs, deep maintenance is now usually carried out by the manufacturer on site, and spares etc are covered, at least initially, but the procurement contract.

Finally I wouldn't class the JLTV as a commercial vehicle. Yes it roots maybe there but it I a very different beast from a Ford F150, which is a bloody good pick up by the way and the biggest selling vehicle in the world, going by units built and sold.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Postby Jake1992 » 21 Nov 2019, 21:38

What are the pros and cons of choosing either JLTV or a UK built design like Foxhound ?

IMO JLTV pros -
Larger order bring down global logistics cost
Supposed low purchase cost ( even though this keeps climbing )
Commonality with our closest ally

Cons -
Risk of increasing cost due to currency fluctuation
Rising unit cost ( as seems to happen often with US projects )
Loss of build work in the UK
New logistics line

Foxhound pros -
Already in service logistics and training lines
Modular design allow easier spiral development similar to Boxer
Boost to UK armour manufacturing
At least 30% comes back in tax
Larger order with multiple new variants giving greater chance of possible UK exports

Cons -
Higher unit cost ( might change if the pound drops or JLTV cost keep going up )
Smaller global supply chain may cause higher spares cost
Not commonality with the US

Weighing up both I still feel Foxhound is the better way to go especially since the cosy grounds of JLTV are ever shrinking due to its rising costs. Couple this with the tax take from foxhound and the employment it’ll give over brings the cost of both very close.
But what sways it for is foxhounds modular set up that would give the fleet greater flexibility in the same way Boxer does over other 8x8s


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