Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

mr.fred wrote:It will take at least five years and cost at least £5m apiece. Ammunition extra.
Ok so how much do the new turrets for the Warrior cost as a comparison? remember in both cases the CTA40 is Government Furnished Equipment as is also the case on Ajax.

mr.fred
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

Lord Jim wrote: Ok so how much do the new turrets for the Warrior cost as a comparison? remember in both cases the CTA40 is Government Furnished Equipment as is also the case on Ajax.
The programme cost is about £5m apiece, on the same basis (300 vehicles, £1.5bn).
The scope on Warrior is a little larger, what with the hull modifications, but you’re asking for more things on the Cockerill turret.

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote:Bugger the 105mm option, can we have as many of those 3030 unmanned turrets with a CTA40 and 2x Spike LR as soon as possible. Goodbye Boxer APC hello Boxer IFV, still with eight dismounts. Recce version has extra ammo, ATGWs and Sensor mast with additional crew.
The gunners sight location on the 3000 series is where the ammunition feed for the CT40 sits.

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Ok would have been nice, so either stick in a more conventional 35mm or try the TWS that is actually being designed for the CTA40 and add a couple of Spike LR. One thing the market is not short of is RWS these days.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Unfortunately the British Bae dorks presented a bid that beat every single requirement and built at their own expense a fully operational vehicle including a turret that fired the 40mm CTA gun that could also be fitted to the Warrior.
Nope, they didn't! I know alot more about that turret, and to claim it was anything like TR7 is absurd. It was a demonstrator of the CT40 integration, not a systems integration.

BAE also didn't bid compliant or beyond.
There's video of it firing. All I am saying is that they built a working prototype which the other guys did not.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Ok would have been nice, so either stick in a more conventional 35mm or try the TWS that is actually being designed for the CTA40 and add a couple of Spike LR. One thing the market is not short of is RWS these days.
There was a Boxer fitted with a Lockheed CTA40 turret (the "international" version of the Ajax/Warrior turret) displayed at one of the shows a couple years ago. I was shot down when I said it was the Ajax turret itself. Photos exits on the interweb.

Why would you not want that?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Ideally I would like to see the maximum number of dismounts retained, and any manned turret is going to reduce this. Does the international version of the Ajax turret still use the over large turret ring of the Ajax or is it a more universal size?

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Unfortunately the British Bae dorks presented a bid that beat every single requirement and built at their own expense a fully operational vehicle including a turret that fired the 40mm CTA gun that could also be fitted to the Warrior.
Nope, they didn't! I know alot more about that turret, and to claim it was anything like TR7 is absurd. It was a demonstrator of the CT40 integration, not a systems integration.

BAE also didn't bid compliant or beyond.
There's video of it firing. All I am saying is that they built a working prototype which the other guys did not.
Do you think the fact BAE Systems are 50% owners of CTAi has anything to do with that... I'm not sure the other guys could or would have been granted access at that time.

And yes, a working prototype. Which is miles away from "fully operational" as you previously described.

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote:Ideally I would like to see the maximum number of dismounts retained, and any manned turret is going to reduce this. Does the international version of the Ajax turret still use the over large turret ring of the Ajax or is it a more universal size?
The AJAX turret and Warrior/LM turret are different, as one is RLS Lance development and the other LM internal.

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

I know the turrets on Ajax and Warrior CIP are different. I was enquiring as to the difference between the actual Ajax turret and the aforementioned "International" version of the turret.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Unfortunately the British Bae dorks presented a bid that beat every single requirement and built at their own expense a fully operational vehicle including a turret that fired the 40mm CTA gun that could also be fitted to the Warrior.
Nope, they didn't! I know alot more about that turret, and to claim it was anything like TR7 is absurd. It was a demonstrator of the CT40 integration, not a systems integration.

BAE also didn't bid compliant or beyond.
There's video of it firing. All I am saying is that they built a working prototype which the other guys did not.
Do you think the fact BAE Systems are 50% owners of CTAi has anything to do with that... I'm not sure the other guys could or would have been granted access at that time.

And yes, a working prototype. Which is miles away from "fully operational" as you previously described.
To me "working" and "operational" mean the same thing. I guess that must mean something different in your line of business. I meant that LM had a pretty picture of what they wanted to do, Bae had a metal turret with a real gun that went bang and propelled shells at a target.

Perhaps you can confirm LM's proposal of reusing the Warrior turret on the WCSP program and rerouting the ammo supply outside of the turret?

As for Bae not supplying LM with guns, that is just a bunch of hooey. As I suspect you well know. The guns were and are government supplied. If LM wanted some, they would have asked the MoD.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:I know the turrets on Ajax and Warrior CIP are different. I was enquiring as to the difference between the actual Ajax turret and the aforementioned "International" version of the turret.
Looks all mean and fighty! Note the missiles.

Image

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Now that is a thing of beauty! If we can fit this turret and still have at least six dismounts we have a winner. Now where is our cheque book :)

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: To me "working" and "operational" mean the same thing. I guess that must mean something different in your line of business
We're on a defence forum. It's disingenuous to suggest they mean the same thing.
Ron5 wrote: Perhaps you can confirm LM's proposal of reusing the Warrior turret on the WCSP program and rerouting the ammo supply outside of the turret?
The CT40 by design places the ammunition outside of the crew compartment due to the sideways breech loading orientation.

https://www.cta-international.com/wp-co ... -40mm2.jpg
Ron5 wrote: As for Bae not supplying LM with guns, that is just a bunch of hooey. As I suspect you well know. The guns were and are government supplied. If LM wanted some, they would have asked the MoD.
And the MOD would have what? Conjured up a spare system from where... MOD has hardly been known for its investment in industry R&D for the last 2 decades.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote: To me "working" and "operational" mean the same thing. I guess that must mean something different in your line of business
We're on a defence forum. It's disingenuous to suggest they mean the same thing.
Ron5 wrote: Perhaps you can confirm LM's proposal of reusing the Warrior turret on the WCSP program and rerouting the ammo supply outside of the turret?
The CT40 by design places the ammunition outside of the crew compartment due to the sideways breech loading orientation.

https://www.cta-international.com/wp-co ... -40mm2.jpg
Ron5 wrote: As for Bae not supplying LM with guns, that is just a bunch of hooey. As I suspect you well know. The guns were and are government supplied. If LM wanted some, they would have asked the MoD.
And the MOD would have what? Conjured up a spare system from where... MOD has hardly been known for its investment in industry R&D for the last 2 decades.
You must be a civil servant with your "gift" for answers.

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

That "Gift", only manifests itself once one reaches the lofty perch of he Senior Civil Service. Below that most Civil Servants are treated like and expected to act like Drones for the aforementioned.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It is possible to cut through the communication policy ("chaff" :D ) of the MoD
... especially training as a Kremnologist comes in handy

Therefore people can be 'in the know' without being 'civil servants'... on the inside of that chaff wall, so to say.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: You must be a civil servant with your "gift" for answers.
And you sound like a 12 yr trooper, the incredible ability to make everything sound easy, and yet still stuck at the first hurdle.

One of us is certainly wrong, but perhaps both.

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clivestonehouse1
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by clivestonehouse1 »

Lord Jim wrote:That "Gift", only manifests itself once one reaches the lofty perch of he Senior Civil Service. Below that most Civil Servants are treated like and expected to act like Drones for the aforementioned.
Very true.
Every Civil Servant above a D band seems to think they are a god.
We lowly E grades are treated like scum.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

clivestonehouse1 wrote:Every Civil Servant above a D band seems to think they are a god.
On that note I wonder who is overseeing the Gvmnt Major Projects activity these days; on that front Boxer amounts to small change (though at Army's level of things will be a key determinant of what capabilities - rather than a motley collection, with some museum pieces included - can be fielded, when needed)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

An interesting thread from another forum, working from a recent article in Jane's. It has some interesting "Models" of possible Boxer varaitns which are similar to those I have proposed in the Future form of the British Army thread.
https://www.snafu-solomon.com/2020/04/b ... -john.html
Here is a video talking about the C3105 turret, part of Cockerill's 3000 series.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jo ... ORM%3DVDRE
These turret can take anything up to a 105mm gun. The unmanned version can take 1 40mm autocannon which probably refers to the Bofors but should therefore be able to accommodate a CTA40.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jo ... ORM=VDQVAP
Adopting a common turret series for different versions of the Boxer might bring certain benefits, and with the majority of the work already done regarding installation in a Boxer Mission module, at least with the Unmanned auto cannon variety cost should be abele to be kept down

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Plasticine models getting people excited; here's the real thing, to walk around and touch
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

If the Army re evaluated its AFV programmes and reduced/cancelled both Warrior and Ajax, unlikely as to is, it will have a minor issue in that the CTS40 is Governmental Supplied Equipment and we have already bought quite a few for the planned turreted versions of these two platforms. Therefore any IFV variant of the Boxer is going to have to use this as its primary weapon. But to use either of the existing turrets will have a major impact on the number of dismounts that any IFV Boxer could carry. With the ongoing trials regarding "Strike" etc., should the MoD be also looking at what unmanned turrets are out there that either have been shown to be compatible with the CTA40 or should it spend a limited amount to fund developmental work with companies such as Cockerill to at least give it a number of options in the future?

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RunningStrong
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

The coaxial sighting systems on the Cockerilll 3000 turret is precisely where the CT40 feed system sits.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-te ... nt-system/

Lord Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Agreed, if you simply tried to fit a CTA40 straight into a 3000 series as is, which is why developmental work would be required, but what is for example the gun and feed mechanism were placed further back in the Turret, as the length of the CTA40 is one of its advantages, so the feed mechanism was behind the sighting systems? Can the Gunner's sighting system be moved to the left hand side or even above the gun?

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