Future Littoral Strike Ships

[Tempest414]

It should be quite clear by now, Argus will not get a direct replacement.

Yes we know this But what else will have to go to get these ships and keep them in terms of crew and money because if anyone on here thinks these new ship can be crewed by 35 people and support RM and SF ops they are mad. These ships with landing / raiding craft and Helicopter support will need a core crew of 100 just like a Bay does

Its suppose to be a low key base for special forces and marines. Sticking a proper RN ship next to it removes its advantage.

what will be low key about operating Merlin's and Chinooks off of them. do you think that people think here comes just another ship when MV Ocean trader turns up some where no they think ah up the CIA are in town

[Lord Jim]

This completely voids the whole concept. Its suppose to be a low key base for special forces and marines. Sticking a proper RN ship next to it removes its advantage.

From what has been released (not a lot) there is no mention of some under cover James Bond style SF base. Whatever results from the FLSS it is, in all probability, going to be grey and fly the White Ensign and everyone is going to know what it is there for.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I would rather see a LSG comprising of a FLSS and a up gunned B2 River which would act as security against localised threats

This completely voids the whole concept.
Its suppose to be a low key base for special forces and marines. Sticking a proper RN ship next to it removes its advantage.

When I say up gunned this would probably only entail additional HMGs and possibly stabilised pedestals for Javelin and Starstreak.

I think Lord Jim-san's idea very reasonable.
- Yes, LSS can go in singleton, if no "at sea" threat is considered. (e.g. SF operation in Polynesian islands, or attacking drug base at Caribbean)
- If small "at sea" threat is considered, a River B2 added with some machine-guns will make it (e.g. SF operation to attack Somali-pirates home town, or other small African nations) *1
- If more threat is there, there are many possibilities.


*1: Against small boats with guys armed with machine guns, River B2 is not much different from T23 in its "fighting" capability. Both has 1 or 2 30mm gun, 2x 7.62mm gatlings, 2x RHIBs, good enough radar for boat detection, T23 slightly faster (27+knots vs 25+knots), River B2 is more low profile (122m vs 90m, in length). As helicopter will come from LSS, no big difference there are between T23 and River B2.

[RichardIC]

Whatever results from the FLSS it is, in all probability, going to be grey and fly the White Ensign and everyone is going to know what it is there for.

I bet not. Contractor operated would be my bet, like the Points. That's what Prevail are touting too. Keeps the capital cost off the books and places crewing on someone else's shoulders too, although if they're sponsored reserves they will have to be UK merchant seafarers.

RFA possibly but much longer odds. RN? no way.

[SW1]

I would rather see a LSG comprising of a FLSS and a up gunned B2 River which would act as security against localised threats

This completely voids the whole concept.
Its suppose to be a low key base for special forces and marines. Sticking a proper RN ship next to it removes its advantage.

When I say up gunned this would probably only entail additional HMGs and possibly stabilised pedestals for Javelin and Starstreak.

I think Lord Jim-san's idea very reasonable.
- Yes, LSS can go in singleton, if no "at sea" threat is considered. (e.g. SF operation in Polynesian islands, or attacking drug base at Caribbean)
- If small "at sea" threat is considered, a River B2 added with some machine-guns will make it (e.g. SF operation to attack Somali-pirates home town, or other small African nations) *1
- If more threat is there, there are many possibilities.


*1: Against small boats with guys armed with machine guns, River B2 is not much different from T23 in its "fighting" capability. Both has 1 or 2 30mm gun, 2x 7.62mm gatlings, 2x RHIBs, good enough radar for boat detection, T23 slightly faster (27+knots vs 25+knots), River B2 is more low profile (122m vs 90m, in length). As helicopter will come from LSS, no big difference there are between T23 and River B2.

If such an armament is all that’s required then why would need an opv or like, if we’re going to inovate let’s inovate, couple of armed usv providing water security against small boats backed up by

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/ ... 50-375.jpg

Or if your really wanting something

https://images05.military.com/sites/def ... k=5Jokq3pv

[ArmChairCivvy]

Contractor operated would be my bet, like the Points. That's what Prevail are touting too. Keeps the capital cost off the books and places crewing on someone else's shoulders too, although if they're sponsored reserves they will have to be UK merchant seafarers

Yep, that is the way it will go.

Now, if the 4 ships are plying their trade... how will you organise one at a time, going into "the" conversion... not big - but will still take a while?
- meaning: one crew 'twiddling their thumbs'?

[Lord Jim]

Well if the are "Off the books", and contractor operated you can forget the idea of LSGs. I am fine with that because that means they are to be operated as mobile SF bases, dropping anchor in this friendly location or that and conducting operations against unfriendly neighbours, or conducting HADR. It also means they would have little role in the Amphibious Group, though would be of use supplementing the Points and moving rotary assets into theatre.

[Tempest414]

couple of armed usv providing water security against small boats backed up by

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/ ... 50-375.jpg

If only we had one of them and a side lift to get to the flight deck

[SW1]

couple of armed usv providing water security against small boats backed up by

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/ ... 50-375.jpg

If only we had one of them and a side lift to get to the flight deck

Maybe we could ask the us marines to bring there along on our ships it’s all the rage!

Or possible even use alternatives I’m sure we could scrape together something similar

[donald_of_tokyo]

...I think Lord Jim-san's idea very reasonable.
- Yes, LSS can go in singleton, if no "at sea" threat is considered. (e.g. SF operation in Polynesian islands, or attacking drug base at Caribbean)
- If small "at sea" threat is considered, a River B2 added with some machine-guns will make it (e.g. SF operation to attack Somali-pirates home town, or other small African nations) *1
- If more threat is there, there are many possibilities.

*1: Against small boats with guys armed with machine guns, River B2 is not much different from T23 in its "fighting" capability. Both has 1 or 2 30mm gun, 2x 7.62mm gatlings, 2x RHIBs, good enough radar for boat detection, T23 slightly faster (27+knots vs 25+knots), River B2 is more low profile (122m vs 90m, in length). As helicopter will come from LSS, no big difference there are between T23 and River B2.

If such an armament is all that’s required then why would need an opv or like, if we’re going to inovate let’s inovate, couple of armed usv providing water security against small boats backed up by... [firepowers]

LSS with more guns and River B2 as an escort are different issues.

In all warfare, especially in SF operations, there are many "friendly" or "un-related" ships/boats around. There are many cases, only after they start fire us, we know they are enemy not just fishermen. We need inspection, or even warn them (or kindly ask them please) "not to go near our LSS". In calm water, RHIBs or ORC (better be CB90) can do it. River B2 is there for in bad weather (which is frequent) or in transit (boats cannot follow LSS for long).

I agree there are many cases LSS can deploy in singleton, as I myself stated. But, adding a River B2 is a big leap in security = lowering risks a lot. My point is, if enemy does NOT have anti-ship missiles (or SSKs ), River B2 is nearly as useful as T23/T26/T45 if combined with LSS (because helicopter can be self-provided by LSS).

[shark bait]

only after they start fire us, we know they are enemy not just fishermen.

And this is exactly the kind of environment we can expect the LSS to operate in, it looks more like a response to hybrid threats than a proper amphibious ship. If that's how its applied, it could be a valuable addition to the fleet.

I agree the transitional escorts are not as useful in this domain, so we will see other assets used, perhaps that will be the new river class, perhaps it will be combat boats like the CB90.

[ArmChairCivvy]

a response to hybrid threats

Exactly

[Poiuytrewq]

Latest from Prevail Partners on their MRV concept.

[Lord Jim]

The design looks very promising. Would two such vessels be affordable within the current funding level from the transitional fund? Remember this is the key to the whole programme, no new money and a pretty firm upper limit on what can be spent for just two vessels. Anything more is outside the scope of the FLSS programme.

As for who or how they operate, these are for openly showing the UK still has a global presence, so they will be grey and be operated at least by the RFA with RN crew supplementing them dependant on mission type.

[Repulse]

Having a number of assets to compliment a FLSS will be important, a number of which the RN has / will have, there are two though that I would say are missing.

A MHPC Littoral escort with (limited) AAW capability:




A USV Fast craft:

[Jake1992]

The design looks very promising. Would two such vessels be affordable within the current funding level from the transitional fund? Remember this is the key to the whole programme, no new money and a pretty firm upper limit on what can be spent for just two vessels. Anything more is outside the scope of the FLSS programme.

As for who or how they operate, these are for openly showing the UK still has a global presence, so they will be grey and be operated at least by the RFA with RN crew supplementing them dependant on mission type.

I couple of things that jumped out at me were the mentions of HADR abd hospital ship, this dures links to what was being talked about with the aid budget.
If these vessels are designed to conduct these roles as well could we see money come from the aid budget to help boost per ship budget.

[RichardIC]

As for who or how they operate, these are for openly showing the UK still has a global presence, so they will be grey and be operated at least by the RFA with RN crew supplementing them dependant on mission type.

The RN has a chronic shortage of people and the MoD has a chronic shortage of money. They’ll be contractor owned and operated or nothing.

Prevail have spotted that gap in the market. They’re not offering to sell a ship. They’re offering to provide a service.

[Tempest414]

For me there are a few things in the video above

1) ready for ops in 2020
2) it looks like it will be based on a Point class ship
3) 400 embarked personnel ( company of RM 200 plus crew 100 plus helicopter detachment )
4) a UAV deck at the back but no garage / work shop for them?
5) keeping the Vehicle decks 2400 lane meters just 250 meter less than a current Point class

[Tempest414]

As for who or how they operate, these are for openly showing the UK still has a global presence, so they will be grey and be operated at least by the RFA with RN crew supplementing them dependant on mission type.

The RN has a chronic shortage of people and the MoD has a chronic shortage of money. They’ll be contractor owned and operated or nothing.

Prevail have spotted that gap in the market. They’re not offering to sell a ship. They’re offering to provide a service.

You maybe right or ship 1 could replace RFA Argus taking her 80 RFA and 50 RN crew and ship 2 could replace one of the Forts with there 127 RFA and 45 RN crew

[RichardIC]

You maybe right or ship 1 could replace RFA Argus taking her 80 RFA and 50 RN crew and ship 2 could replace one of the Forts with there 127 RFA and 45 RN crew

There's a Type 45 and a Type 23 that can't be crewed at the moment, and we know from early experience with QE that PoW is going to need more people than originally planned. And recruitment targets still aren't being met.

It's all a matter of priorities.

[Repulse]

Agree, if the future is 2 SSSs then both a Fort 1 and Argus crew could be freed up, giving 2 FLSS manned by RFA/RN personnel. Would still see an option for a PCRS/Hospital ship “service” being a good addition.

[Tempest414]

There's a Type 45 and a Type 23 that can't be crewed at the moment, and we know from early experience with QE that PoW is going to need more people than originally planned. And recruitment targets still aren't being met.

There is still 200 RFA crew on Argus & and one of the Fort 1's that have nothing to do with RN escorts and carriers we also know that Argus will go without replacement and it is looking like we will only get 2 FSS to replace the 3 Forts . Plus we don't know what will happen to the Waves yet

[RichardIC]

There is still 200 RFA crew on Argus & and one of the Fort 1's that have nothing to do with RN escorts and carriers we also know that Argus will go without replacement and it is looking like we will only get 2 FSS to replace the 3 Forts . Plus we don't know what will happen to the Waves yet

The Birkenhead Navy. The RFA can't crew their ships either.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I think 3rd SSS is needed (CV strike is very very logistic heavy). Also if there are only two of them, they will be top priority target. If one is in refit, and the other was sunk, the UK CVTF will go away.

LSS can be, and I think will be, operated like Points. In other words, I think LSS will not go into any theater with threats. For ship crew, they say they need only 36 crews from the company. Additional soldiers and boat crews will be provided by RM, and aviation from Merlin HC4 squadron.

Bigger issue is, can RM provide such crews, in rotation?

.

[Lord Jim]

Well if the FLSS are to be operated like the Points, then they will do bugger all to increase the UK visible global presence, and it is the visible part that the Government is keen on.

If they end up being "Grey" but contractor operated, then it would put the RFA on a slippery slope as you can bet someone in the Treasury will spot this and think "Well if the LSS can be Contractor operated, why not the majority of the RFA"!!!