Future Littoral Strike Ships

[Tempest414]

As I have said in the past if we went with a Point class type then a side lift like on the Wasp's would be good and if we went for a ship with a bow mounted bridge then rear lift like on the Mistral,s would be good

[donald_of_tokyo]

I hope no lift.

Lifts will just kill other assets, by increased man-power, cost, and maintenance load.

LSS is LSS, no need to become a helicopter carrier.

If a helicopter carrier is needed (I think is needed on ~2030), an Ocean-like ship is needed, not a chimera-ship based on RoRo vessel.

[Poiuytrewq]

I hope no lift.

Lifts will just kill other assets, by increased man-power, cost, and maintenance load.

LSS is LSS, no need to become a helicopter carrier.

If a helicopter carrier is needed (I think is needed on ~2030), an Ocean-like ship is needed, not a chimera-ship based on RoRo vessel.

I think it all depends on how a FLSS vessel is going to fit into the LSG and then how the LSG then fits into the LitM group.

As a stand alone HADR/Patrol vessel that can be surged to perform short endurance Littoral Strike Ops, a modified Point makes complete sense. Add in the LSG and LitM group requirements and a modified Point makes less sense but we don't know how an LSG will be configured yet so time will tell.

The Prevail concept appears to show hanger space for 2 Chinooks with blades unfolded. I don't think that's enough. I think to do it properly there will need to be hanger space for another 2 Apaches/Wildcats/Merlins even if they aren't all used for Ops at the same time. If the platform is surged and the embarked Merlin/Wildcats aren't needed where do they go? The Chinooks can't sit on the flight deck for too long with all that salty sea spray corroding the airframes if it takes days for the situation to escalate or stabilise.

As I see it unless the MOD bites the bullet and pays for marinised Chinooks with folding rotors (the ideal solution) the FLSS vessels will need space for 6 Merlins or 2 Chinooks/ 2 Merlins to perform the Littoral Strike role properly.

This could be achieved by two ways. Either widen the beam to 29m to increase the hanger space to around 1000sqm or add a lift to ensure acces to the upper deck. Finding donor hulls with a 29m beam is probably the simplest option which would allow 2 distinct hanger spaces. One suitable for two Chinooks with rotors unfolded and a second smaller hanger, adjacent to the first, suitable for two folded Merlins/Wildcats. This would allow a helicopter to be moved from the hanger to the flight deck whilst on the move without the wind and the sea spray blowing into the main hanger area if critical maintenance was being performed on another helicopter/UAV etc.

Going one step further and moving the deck crane aft to a working deck as per the original MOD FLSS concept, the superstructure could house a hanger suitable for 3 rows of 3 Merlins and a third landing spot could easily be created on the flight deck. Increasing the surge EMF capacity to around 400 by adding surge accommodation to the tank deck would create a vessel, very cost effectively that was worthy of being at the centre of a Littoral Strike Group.

Two such FLSS vessels would, when combined, incorporate hanger space for 18 Merlins with 6 landings spots and an EMF of around 800. Together with over 3000LM of vehicle capacity and a top speed in excess of 20knts, they would exceed the capacity of Ocean for less than the price of an Ocean replacement.

I think its worth considering.

[Tempest414]

I hope no lift.

Lifts will just kill other assets, by increased man-power, cost, and maintenance load.

LSS is LSS, no need to become a helicopter carrier.

If a helicopter carrier is needed (I think is needed on ~2030), an Ocean-like ship is needed, not a chimera-ship based on RoRo vessel.

For me I see these new FLSS Killing off the Bays and we will loss a great ships for a ferry

[Lord Jim]

I am not a fan and would rather see money invest in areas where it is really needed that this PR stunt. It may have merit but get the basics right first.

[Repulse]

As recent MCM trials give a hint to, I think the Bays future is secured as having a secondary role acting more as a mothership for unmanned kit and smaller ships.

Where the FLSS does challenge IMO is the need for a Argus replacement and a 3rd SSS. In the past RFA Victoria has been used to host SFs EoS.

[donald_of_tokyo]

The Prevail concept appears to show hanger space for 2 Chinooks with blades unfolded. I don't think that's enough. I think to do it properly there will need to be hanger space for another 2 Apaches/Wildcats/Merlins even if they aren't all used for Ops at the same time. If the platform is surged and the embarked Merlin/Wildcats aren't needed where do they go? The Chinooks can't sit on the flight deck for too long with all that salty sea spray corroding the airframes if it takes days for the situation to escalate or stabilise.

Not sure why we need such a huge helicopter capability on LSS. It is using the "transformation" money, only available on 2019 and 2020. So, its maintenance cost, including man-power cost (no matter it is of RN/RFA or out-sourced), must come from existing assets. "Addition" is non existing.

I personally think, 2 LSS's maintenance and operation cost must not exceed those of RFA Argus. (Yes I assume Argus will be disbanded, replaced with 2 LSS). If more cost is needed, then UK will be forced to disband further assets, e.g. Waves or even Bays.

Two such FLSS vessels would, when combined, incorporate hanger space for 18 Merlins with 6 landings spots and an EMF of around 800. Together with over 3000LM of vehicle capacity and a top speed in excess of 20knts, they would exceed the capacity of Ocean for less than the price of an Ocean replacement.

I do not think so. It is not purchase cost, it is the maintenance and operation cost which is the key to this program. No money is planned after 2021.

For me I see these new FLSS Killing off the Bays and we will loss a great ships for a ferry

I'm also afraid of it.

As recent MCM trials give a hint to, I think the Bays future is secured as having a secondary role acting more as a mothership for unmanned kit and smaller ships.

You mean, MHC will lose its mother ship part, and only focus on RoV/USV/UUV part? Possibly.

[Repulse]

You mean, MHC will lose its mother ship part, and only focus on RoV/USV/UUV part? Possibly.

I think it’s highly probable. I see the OPV/T31 fleet ultimately heading toward 15-18 ships plus a 2-3 Survey ships, these will have some limited ability to operate USVs and USuVs. In addition to the Bays and some Serco civilian operated Platforms will be added that are able to be manned by reserve forces during a crisis.

[Tempest414]

Putting aside all other things can we at this time have 4 to 6 (i.e 2 or 3 on each ship ) of any type of helicopter taken up at all times on these ships

[donald_of_tokyo]

How will be the Merlin HC4 operated? Army Wildcat can also be operated from these ships. (I remember an Army-version Wildcat has been operated on a frigate, last year).

[Pongoglo]

If only spreadsheet Phil could find a few pounds down the back of the Treasury sofa as the addition of one these on the FLSS vessels would make a massive difference

Dream on I know.......

Dear Phil, could we have three more for the Bay Class as well ???

[Lord Jim]

To fit within the budget, the FLSS are going to have far smaller aviation facilities than has been suggested by some. two deck spots for helicopters up to Chinook but probably only hanger space for four Merlins or smaller sized platforms. The FLSS is not going to be for launching company sized assaults but rather platoon sized or smaller. Yes it will be able to put more troops ashore but via multiple round trips by both helicopter and ship to shore surface craft. Of course another of its roles would be the interdiction of maritime targets, again by dispatching boarding parties no bigger than a platoon.

The FLSS should not be a threat to the Bays if common sense is used as they will fulfil very different roles, and the former would actually compliment the latter in any amphibious operation, providing a level of aviation support not provided by wither the Bays or the Albions, and possibly negating the need to allocate a CVF to the operation, dependant on the scale. The FLSS could also pave the way for the requirements for the successor to the Bays, which could replace the FLSS and Albions as well with a common, reconfigurable platform.

[Tempest414]

How will be the Merlin HC4 operated? Army Wildcat can also be operated from these ships. (I remember an Army-version Wildcat has been operated on a frigate, last year).

My point is with only 25 Merlin HC4 and 34 Army Wildcats can afford to have 4 of each stuck on these low rate ships all year round

[SW1]

The CHF will operate two Merlin HC4 squadrons (845 and 846 NAS) operating 12 and nine Merlin HC4/4As respectively, with four retained in the maintenance fleet: 845 NAS will focus on deployable units of action as required, while 846 NAS will have the operational conversion training and MCT commitment. The CHF will also have six Wildcat AH1 BRHs available from 847 NAS.

https://www.janes.com/images/assets/889 ... orward.pdf

[Poiuytrewq]

As recent MCM trials give a hint to, I think the Bays future is secured...

An MCM role would be a great secondary role for the Bay's.

Not sure why we need such a huge helicopter capability on LSS

I am proposing that we should ensure space for two unfolded Chinooks plus 2 Merlins/Wildcats. IF we could get some Chinooks with folding rotors, space for 4 folded Chinooks would be fine.

I personally think, 2 LSS's maintenance and operation cost must not exceed those of RFA Argus

That should be possible even if the donor hulls have a 29m beam as opposed to 26m. We need to maximise the opportunity afforded by the introduction of the FLSS vessels without completely blowing the budget.

If more cost is needed, then UK will be forced to disband further assets, e.g. Waves or even Bays.

We will have wait until the Autumn spending review before we know the future financial landscape.

I think it’s highly probable. I see the OPV/T31 fleet ultimately heading toward 15-18 ships plus a 2-3 Survey ships

If the MCM fleet can be condensed down to a handful of Amphibs could this allow an increase in escorts? Interesting prospect.

[Lord Jim]

Unless there is a substantial overhaul programme for the Chinooks, we are not going to see them on board naval units for any significant time at sea. Yes they can be deployed for short term operations and/or lilly-pad, but they are not equipped or protected for seaborne operations afloat. That is the role of the HC4s so we only need for the FLSS to be able to land a Chinook rather than have them embarked. I often think that fact that the flight deck of the T026 was stipulated as being able to handle a Chinook has made many think that this is going to be our go to helicopter for maritime transport operations. It isn't.

[Repulse]

If the MCM fleet can be condensed down to a handful of Amphibs could this allow an increase in escorts? Interesting prospect.

The fact that the new MCM programme is less about platforms has been known for a while. Would not say that MCM will be limited to assets deployed from the Bays (or FLSS for that matter) would also see say 4 Serco ships similar to SS Victoria. Additional capability would be mobile containerised units able to be lorry based or deployed on the Rivers/T31s and also the Echos (and eventual replacements).

[Tempest414]

The CHF will operate two Merlin HC4 squadrons (845 and 846 NAS) operating 12 and nine Merlin HC4/4As respectively, with four retained in the maintenance fleet: 845 NAS will focus on deployable units of action as required, while 846 NAS will have the operational conversion training and MCT commitment. The CHF will also have six Wildcat AH1 BRHs available from 847 NAS.

https://www.janes.com/images/assets/889 ... orward.pdf

This makes it harder to embark 4 Merlin's and 4 BF Wildcats 2 of each on on each ship all year round this would leave 845 with just 8 aircraft for all other tasks

And again this is why for me the Puma replacement needs to have a folding rotor head and be able to go to sea

[Repulse]

Tempest414, playing Devils advocate but given the limited number of aviation assets available, does this make a hangar for a FLSS Littoral escort (one of the T31 roles I understand) a nice to have?

[Lord Jim]

In an ideal world we would have twelve or more Ospreys on order for use by SF and co. off the FLSS and to provide the CVF with a COD capability. I wonder could we class they as a specialised HADR platform and get someone lese to pay for them.

[donald_of_tokyo]

How will be the Merlin HC4 operated? Army Wildcat can also be operated from these ships. (I remember an Army-version Wildcat has been operated on a frigate, last year).

My point is with only 25 Merlin HC4 and 34 Army Wildcats can afford to have 4 of each stuck on these low rate ships all year round

Why you need 4 of each on both LSS? 1 LSS is at Caribbean ocean for HADR. One Wildcat, supported with local help assets will work well. East-of-Suez operation might also only carry 2 Wildcats normally. LSS's readiness does not mean it will be always deployed. RM onboard will be limited to platoon level normally, and enhanced to company level when in action, including sending 2-4 Merlins when needed. I see no problem here?

If more cost is needed, then UK will be forced to disband further assets, e.g. Waves or even Bays.

We will have wait until the Autumn spending review before we know the future financial landscape.

I do not expect big increase in money, do you? Filling the 4-14Bn GBP gap will be the best hope, and I won't be surprised if we see further cuts.

[Jake1992]

All this talking of hanger size seems to only focus on what will be carried during regular peace time when it should be looked st as what would need to be carried during the high leave ops.

For me a hanger large enough to operate and maintain 2 chinooks blades unfolded is more than large enough, this would be similar size to that on the Karl doormen ( 4-6 merlins )

If we went on only day to day use to judge the size of hangers then the QEs would be half the size, the T-45 would be single wildcat size, the GP T23s wouldn’t have a hanger. It’s not about what’s needed during peace time it’s and what’s needed during those rare but vital times.
A hanger that can carry 4+ merlins but only regularly carries 1 or just a wildcat is of far more use than a hanger that’s built for that peace time of 1-2 merlins but needs to carry 4+ during high intense ops

[donald_of_tokyo]

All this talking of hanger size seems to only focus on what will be carried during regular peace time when it should be looked st as what would need to be carried during the high leave ops.

For me a hanger large enough to operate and maintain 2 chinooks blades unfolded is more than large enough, this would be similar size to that on the Karl doormen ( 4-6 merlins )

Agreed. So, I think most of the LSS design discussed here has no problem.

[Poiuytrewq]

For me a hanger large enough to operate and maintain 2 chinooks blades unfolded is more than large enough, this would be similar size to that on the Karl doormen ( 4-6 merlins )

Agreed. So, I think most of the LSS design discussed here has no problem.

Are you sure the Prevail MRV can hold six Merlins? It looks like four with maintenance spaces to me. The Karel Doorman is over 4m wider in the beam. This is why I am suggesting the FLSS needs to 29m to give a KD sized hanger.

[Lord Jim]

One of the core reasons for the FLSS is that it would conduct operations using SF and small RM detachments where and when needed. In theory they could have quite a high operational tempo being sent to areas where they are needed on a year round basis. This is the criteria they would need to be designed around, not as some amphibious assault platform with the capability to operate significantly larger numbers of troops in a high end conflict. That is the domain of the Albions, Bays and their successor(s). Much of what is being put forward is mission creep and we haven't even seen what the FLSS will look like in conceptual drawing from official sources yet.