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Future Littoral Strike Ships

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Poiuytrewq
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Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 12:01

Has the Defence Secretary just pulled a rabbit out of his hat?


Very very interesting but where is the money coming from?

Apparently it's being being funded from the new 'Transformation Fund' :think:



Need to see the detail but many of us have been calling for this for a long time. Fingers crossed.



shark bait wrote:Money aside, this sounds great! A pair of big fat utility ships could be highly valuable ships, letting the rare escorts focus on being escorts.
Talking about escorts, more T26's or uprated T31's to form these UK 'Strike Groups' in the Gulf and Pacific?

No way 8 T26's are going to cover 2 Strike Groups and an independent CSG?

Referring to the new new Littoral Strike Ships, Williamson said:
These globally deployable, multi-role vessels will be able to conduct a wide range of operations, from crisis support to war-fighting.

They would support out future Commando force. They will be forward deployed at exceptionally high readiness and able to respond at a moments notice, bringing the fight from sea to land.

Our vision is for these ships to form part of two littoral strike groups, complete with escorts, support vessels and helicopters.

Absolutely no chance of these being built abroad then....

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 12:06

Moved across, not really an escort topic.

shark bait wrote:Image

I guess its no coincidence it looks like a Point Class....
A modified Point, who would have thought it :D

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 12:09


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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2019, 12:14

Poiuytrewq wrote: future Commando force

- I like it. Back to "Cdo carriers" and back to sea
Poiuytrewq wrote:bringing the fight from sea to land.

The US (joint) doctrine is called "From the Sea"
Poiuytrewq wrote:these ships to form part of two littoral strike groups, complete with escorts, support vessels and helicopters.

Points and Bays aside, a third SSS - FLss :idea: - will be a must (and could look different?)
- or has it been baked into the two that will replace the Albions ( one now early, one much later)?
- every time you bring a ship back from extended readiness it will be £ 40-60 m - how quickly would the more multi-function replacement be paid for, in full?

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby SW1 » 11 Feb 2019, 12:17

We can borrow the plans from mv cragside!!! A most welcome and interesting development.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2019, 12:29

We can easily trace the family tree, here compliments of
CIMSEC 2017-10-13 18:46:53

[By Salvatore R. Mercogliano, Ph.D.]

" Constructed in the Odense Steel Shipyard in 2011 for Maersk Line, MV Cragside is capable of speeds of up to 21 knots. Her design is a common one in Europe, derived from the Flensburger roll-on/roll-of ships. She is a near sister ship to the four [six, then] Point-class roll-on/roll-off ships chartered by the United Kingdom Ministry of Defense in 2002. The ship’s configuration, when compared to photos of the vessel before conversion, indicate an addition aft of the main house without windows or ports. Forward of the house, two enclosed helicopter hangers are added with the addition of a large flying off platform"

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 12:43

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote: future Commando force

- I like it. Back to "Cdo carriers" and back to sea
Exactly, I am particularly pleased with the modified Point proposal. Obviously I have been going on about the capabilities of modified Points for ages but the important thing is the value for money. Inexpensive but highly capable, an excellent choice.

One thing to bear in mind, unless mexefloates are carried or larger LCM's can be davit/crane deployed, this is a helicopter platform with fast assault craft only.

Of course an accompanying Albion or Bay could get the vehicles ashore.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:these ships to form part of two littoral strike groups, complete with escorts, support vessels and helicopters.

Points and Bays aside, a third SSS - FLss :idea: - will be a must (and could look different?)
- or has it been baked into the two that will replace the Albions ( one now early, one much later)?
- every time you bring a ship back from extended readiness it will be £ 40-60 m - how quickly would the more multi-function replacement be paid for, in full?
Again exactly the 'points' ;) that we have been discussing in detail for an extended time.

From the limited information available at this stage the proposal appears to be not one but 2 mini ARG's capable of reinforcement by the Albions and Bays.

The Albion's can't go until the LCU conundrum is sorted. These new LSS vessels won't solve that one. I would seriously look at making these new LSS vessels LCM capable. With the ability to embark 4 to 6 LCM's in each LSS, Bulwark could probably be safely let go.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RichardIC » 11 Feb 2019, 13:10

So the Point-class sealift ships, already reduced from 6 to 4, will now be further reduced to 2.

How long left on the PFI with Foreland, 7 or 8 years? My hunch is that two will be sold outright to MoD and converted for FLSS use and we'll lose the other two when the contract expires.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 13:19

RichardIC wrote:So the Point-class sealift ships, already reduced from 6 to 4, will now be further reduced to 2.
Based on what?

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RichardIC » 11 Feb 2019, 13:22

Poiuytrewq wrote:Based on what?


Based on what I said above.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Phil Sayers » 11 Feb 2019, 13:32

Exciting stuff but it seems to me that the group deployed in the Gulf would likely need a dedicated escort with air defence capability (which would be a large further commitment of limited resources) because these days Hezbollah and the Houthis to take but two examples have their own anti-shipping missiles and this would be a large high value target. Alternatively how much more work (and expense) would be needed to add Artisan, CAMM and a medium calibre gun?

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RichardIC » 11 Feb 2019, 13:42

Phil Sayers wrote:Alternatively how much more work (and expense) would be needed to add Artisan, CAMM and a medium calibre gun?


More than there is. The MoD has a financial blackhole, however this gets done the one absolute certainty is that it will be done on the cheap.

MV Ocean Trader seems to be what this is based upon, which in itself is not a bad thing, plenty of people have advocated it. But it's a converted ro-ro, it's not a warship. It's not intended to be.

And while I'm in Hunchland, and anticipating the inevitable question about whether they will by RN or RFA, I'll put a tenner on neither. Similar operating model as the Points with sponsored reservist crew, operation probably contracted out to a commercial company (Seaborne Freight are looking for something to do), although possibly MoD owned.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby shark bait » 11 Feb 2019, 13:48

Phil Sayers wrote:Exciting stuff but it seems to me that the group deployed in the Gulf would likely need a dedicated escort with air defence capability


Why would they? The Americans have something similar in the region without dedicated escorts, and so do RFA.
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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RetroSicotte » 11 Feb 2019, 13:48

RichardIC wrote:So the Point-class sealift ships, already reduced from 6 to 4, will now be further reduced to 2.

Lacking access to twitter, is this confirmed that they are modifying existing ones in service to the RFA?

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RichardIC » 11 Feb 2019, 13:52

RetroSicotte wrote:Lacking access to twitter, is this confirmed that they are modifying existing ones in service to the RFA?


No, it's me speculating. But there's no new money - if there were Gavin would have shouted it from the rooftops. So it's going to mean recycling existing resources, which I'm speculating means that dedicated to the existing PFI.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby shark bait » 11 Feb 2019, 13:53

No.

Hardly any details apart from one forward based in Asia, one in the UK, they can operate alone or as part of the amphibious group, and apparently they are planned and costed.

The last bit is a little hard to believe.
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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RetroSicotte » 11 Feb 2019, 13:59

RichardIC wrote:No, it's me speculating. But there's no new money - if there were Gavin would have shouted it from the rooftops. So it's going to mean recycling existing resources.

All depends on what resources. For all we know it coulda come from very mundane sources we don't often talk about or think about the money included in.

Not that I'm saying that's likely. I have also been speculating that the Points are "vulnerable" for a while.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Phil Sayers » 11 Feb 2019, 14:00

shark bait wrote:
Why would they? The Americans have something similar in the region without dedicated escorts, and so do RFA.


Fair point with regards routine deployment but it does seem to me that in a situation where one of these was sat off a coast and being used to repeatedly conduct special forces raids inland there is a real risk that whoever was having those raids conducted against them would be tempted to fire at the ship as they would know a high proportion of our total eggs are all sat in that basket. The US has a lot of escorts they could quickly attach to their equivalent if they thought that was becoming a possibility but our options for rapidly being able to provide an escort if the situation starts to call for one are far more limited.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 14:10

RichardIC wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:Lacking access to twitter, is this confirmed that they are modifying existing ones in service to the RFA?


No, it's me speculating. But there's no new money - if there were Gavin would have shouted it from the rooftops. So it's going to mean recycling existing resources, which I'm speculating means that dedicated to the existing PFI.
Apparently it's being being funded from the new 'Transformation Fund'



The Transformation Fund stands at £160m with a further £340m to (hopefully) follow next year.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P-8469.pdf

It's not a lot but if it's new money it's welcome all the same.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Dahedd » 11 Feb 2019, 14:10

Poiuytrewq wrote:Moved across, not really an escort topic.

shark bait wrote:Image

I guess its no coincidence it looks like a Point Class....
A modified Point, who would have thought it :D


Guess the RN had a look round Socom/USNs MV Cragside & liked what they saw.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40 ... mothership

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Poiuytrewq » 11 Feb 2019, 14:17

RetroSicotte wrote:
RichardIC wrote:So the Point-class sealift ships, already reduced from 6 to 4, will now be further reduced to 2.

Lacking access to twitter, is this confirmed that they are modifying existing ones in service to the RFA?
How would we move the British Army around the world with only two Points?

Can't see why they would cut the Points, as PFI's go it actually works quite well.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby RichardIC » 11 Feb 2019, 14:25

Poiuytrewq wrote:Apparently it's being being funded from the new 'Transformation Fund'


There's no new money! The Transformation Fund comes from within the existing MoD budget.

a new Defence Transformation Fund, ring-fenced with £160m from the defence
budget in its first year “for innovative new military capability”


https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8469#fullreport

Poiuytrewq wrote:How would we move the British Army around the world with only two Points?


Good question. Answers on a postcard to G Williamson.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Feb 2019, 14:35

Some links for people looking to look at similar concepts...especially the US version MV Ocean Trader (a rebuild of the Cragside)

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... speedboats

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40 ... mothership

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20 ... on-twitter

And of course if you really want a detailed look...go to Think Defence who also has looked at the Malaysian Navy and previous conversions and whom is feeling (very justifiably) rather smug today...covers pretty much all of the ground including the SD Victoria, Cragside and Atlantic Causeway.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/01/ ... othership/

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/08/ ... roduction/

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/a-ship-t ... a-frigate/

There was also the RFA Reliant in the 1980's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Reliant_(A131)

http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/pho ... id=1531368

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Feb 2019, 14:39

RichardIC wrote:There's no new money! The Transformation Fund comes from within the existing MoD budget.


It's worth noting that the Ocean Trader cost c£60m to convert to its role as well. No doubt the US conversion is on a more ambitious scale and complexity than a UK ship, but its hard to see how much cheaper it could get than that.

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Re: Future Littoral Strike Ships

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 11 Feb 2019, 14:43

1: 2 Points or not

If 2 of the remaining 4 Points are to be converted, or another 2 are introduced (there are many many Point-sisters in the market, including the original Longstone and Beachy Head), both can happen. But, we do not know which is which, so discussing it right now is a little bit too early, I guess.

2: Escort needed or not

I think it is independent issue. Those sealift ships can be only used when the threat is very low (they are essentially a sitting duck). But, in most cases, there are no at-sea threat. Sierra Leone is a good example, and such nations are more than half of the world.

- There is zero possibility using these ships against Russia nor China near their homeland (It is just a suicide).
- In big-scale war, the new ARG will surely not be alone, but will be integrated into CVTF.
- The only case I can imagine for dedicated escort will be Red Sea (Houthi rebels), Syria (Hisbollah). No many cases.


3: Are there crew?

Big question.

4: Is this Argus replacement?

At least, partly? In view of crew? Or, they might be even a good excuse to sell Waves? (to get the crew). I'm not saying they will, but just afraid.

5: They say this is NOT LPD replacement. But in SDSR2020, MOD will need to fight very hard. Good bless the Defence Secretary.


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