RN anti-ship missiles

[Ron5]

As I said elsewhere, I vote to bin the requirement and spend the money on more F-35B.

[Jdam]

The Exocet is a suprise. Thought there was some talk of it not meeting the original specifications.

All seem good options so I'd say good value and flexibility of integration will be key.

Often wonder if we made a huge mistake not investing in an upgraded Sea Eagle with GPS guidance. All the other 70/80s anti-ship throwbacks seem to have evolved with the times.

Do any of those missiles have a land attack capability, my mind might be playing tricks on my but I thought that was part of the requirements.

[RichardIC]

Do any of those missiles have a land attack capability, my mind might be playing tricks on my but I thought that was part of the requirements.

I believe they all do.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/more-d ... p-missile/
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/ex ... 40-block3/

[abc123]

As I said elsewhere, I vote to bin the requirement and spend the money on more F-35B.

But how many more can you buy? 1-2?

[Repulse]

But how many more can you buy? 1-2?

I’ll let Ron speak for himself, but I suspect it was more about spending money on long term capabilities (i.e. the weapons it operates) rather than airframes.

[abc123]

Often wonder if we made a huge mistake not investing in an upgraded Sea Eagle with GPS guidance. All the other 70/80s anti-ship throwbacks seem to have evolved with the times.

First mistake was buying Harpoon instead of sea-launched Sea Eagle. After that, the rest just followed.

[Simon82]

Are the Australians going to buy LRASM? If so will it be integrated with the P-8, F-35 or the Hunter-class (Type 26) frigates?

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12408232?

[Jdam]

Lets face it, the interim solution is one of those programs that can get cancelled without much headlines, with what going on right now I am not confident we are going to get it, I would love to be wrong.

So I don't think it matters if the Australians get it or not as we will not be getting it, that said I hope Australians do as it seems to be a good weapon and should serve them well.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Lets face it, the interim solution is one of those programs that can get cancelled without much headlines, with what going on right now I am not confident we are going to get it, I would love to be wrong.

So I don't think it matters if the Australians get it or not as we will not be getting it, that said I hope Australians do as it seems to be a good weapon and should serve them well.

I’m afraid the interim ASM to be equipped fleet wide will be much important than buying 5 T31.

Looks like RN going to have 19 escort (if T26 are budgeted) with not enough crew with no ASM other than those smallish ones carried on Wildcats... A few of them sitting in the port with no crew.

Much better to see 17 escorts all kitted with ASM capable of simple land attack, fully manned and operated.

FCASW?
Far far away...

If RN can go without ASM for at least a decade, it means FCASW itself is not needed.

Mistaken priority, I think.

[jonas]

Lets face it, the interim solution is one of those programs that can get cancelled without much headlines, with what going on right now I am not confident we are going to get it, I would love to be wrong.

So I don't think it matters if the Australians get it or not as we will not be getting it, that said I hope Australians do as it seems to be a good weapon and should serve them well.

I’m afraid the interim ASM to be equipped fleet wide will be much important than buying 5 T31.

Looks like RN going to have 19 escort (if T26 are budgeted) with not enough crew with no ASM other than those smallish ones carried on Wildcats... A few of them sitting in the port with no crew.

Much better to see 17 escorts all kitted with ASM capable of simple land attack, fully manned and operated.

FCASW?
Far far away...

If RN can go without ASM for at least a decade, it means FCASW itself is not needed.

Mistaken priority, I think.

"
If RN can go without ASM for at least a decade, it means FCASW itself is not needed.
"

That's just what they said about the carriers.

[Scimitar54]

Except that in that case, it was a 40 year gap!

[Jdam]

Some more good news.

[Ron5]

Unfortunately "Provide a solution" isn't the same as ships deploying with operating missiles.

[Timmymagic]

OK here's a suggestion....

RN will have Martlet and Sea Venom on Wildcat. Thats a decent combination for a relatively small helicopter. But Merlin is bereft of anything other than MG's, DC's and Stingray. RN surface vessels are comparatively bereft of Anti Ship Missiles and Land Attack. Integrating Sea Venom or Martlet on Merlin is unlikely to ever happen...

So why not get Marte-ER on Merlin?

Already integrated by the Italian's, keeps co-operation going with Italy, its an MBDA product, has land attack capability, range of >100km, warhead 2x size of Sea Venom's...

What's not to like? Partially closes our AShM gap, fairly cheap, gives Merlin some punch, adds a bit of land attack. Could be operational in 1-2 years...we could even put it on Typhoon (again already integrated)....a small buy of 50 missiles would cover a lot of ground...

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/marte-er/

[Aethulwulf]

The NSM is being integrated onto the Seahawk MH-60R helicopters for India. The NSM and a number of the other possible anti-ship missiles could be integrated on Merlin.

Last year it was reported that the RN requirement included a terrain following precision land attack capability.. I don't think the Marte has a terrain following capability.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ct-notice/

[SD67]

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO. Start with the 5 sets and then extend to other platforms as funds become available (don’t laugh), I suspect Donald is right and this interim period is going to last a long time.

[Ron5]

OK here's a suggestion....

RN will have Martlet and Sea Venom on Wildcat. Thats a decent combination for a relatively small helicopter. But Merlin is bereft of anything other than MG's, DC's and Stingray. RN surface vessels are comparatively bereft of Anti Ship Missiles and Land Attack. Integrating Sea Venom or Martlet on Merlin is unlikely to ever happen...

So why not get Marte-ER on Merlin?

Already integrated by the Italian's, keeps co-operation going with Italy, its an MBDA product, has land attack capability, range of >100km, warhead 2x size of Sea Venom's...

What's not to like? Partially closes our AShM gap, fairly cheap, gives Merlin some punch, adds a bit of land attack. Could be operational in 1-2 years...we could even put it on Typhoon (again already integrated)....a small buy of 50 missiles would cover a lot of ground...

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/marte-er/

RN ASW Merlins are way too precious and way too scarce to go effing about with anti ship missiles that are better carried on the ships or F-35s.

[Ron5]

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO. Start with the 5 sets and then extend to other platforms as funds become available (don’t laugh), I suspect Donald is right and this interim period is going to last a long time.

Would still require additional qualification for the f-35B. So significant cost for the UK.

[J. Tattersall]

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO. Start with the 5 sets and then extend to other platforms as funds become available (don’t laugh), I suspect Donald is right and this interim period is going to last a long time.

Would still require additional qualification for the f-35B. So significant cost for the UK.

JSM too big to fit in F35B bomb bay. Fits F35A & C.

[Jdam]

I remember seeing photos of external checks for the jsm on the F-35, have they dropped that requirement?

[SD67]

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO. Start with the 5 sets and then extend to other platforms as funds become available (don’t laugh), I suspect Donald is right and this interim period is going to last a long time.

Would still require additional qualification for the f-35B. So significant cost for the UK.

JSM too big to fit in F35B bomb bay. Fits F35A & C.

According to the manufacturer it can be carried externally. How important is stealth when you’re at standoff range?

[Timmymagic]

Last year it was reported that the RN requirement included a terrain following precision land attack capability.. I don't think the Marte has a terrain following capability.

This isn't to replace i-SSGM, its to easily get an AShM capability out to the fleet and add some teeth to Merlin that it will otherwise never get. Adding NSM to Merlin would cost a lot, the advantage of Marte-ER is someone else has already paid.

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO.

NSM and JSM are 2 different missiles. NSM canister launch (and helo launch if someone ever pays for it..). JSM is fixed wing launch (and may one day go into subs, again if someone pays for it). The integration of JSM to P-8 has gone very quiet in recent years. The Australians were looking at it but have also ordered LRASM. The US is paying for that to be integrated to P-8 and F-35.

RN ASW Merlins are way too precious and way too scarce to go effing about with anti ship missiles that are better carried on the ships or F-35

I'm not saying this should be their day job, but Merlin's don't just mooch about on ASW. And on our present course they could be on ships that don't have AShM, with no ability to help. Putting 4 Marte-ER onboard the ship in the magazine wouldn't break the bank and helps close a gap.

Would still require additional qualification for the f-35B. So significant cost for the UK.

Qualification for JSM is apparently internal (for A and C) and external (no idea if its inner and mid pylon or if its just inner). Which means the UK could get away with it. Makes sense as the USMC and Japan would be very interested in JSM on their B's.

JSM too big to fit in F35B bomb bay. Fits F35A & C.

That's true but its not a big deal. It's a missile with a 300 mile range so losing some stealth to carry it on an external pylon doesn't cost you much, it could be launched well outside of an enemys detection or engagement range.

I remember seeing photos of external checks for the jsm on the F-35, have they dropped that requirement?

No, If anything the growing interest in anti ship operations from Japan and the USMC, both of whom are/will operate F-35B and are customers already for JSM (Japan) or NSM (USMC and USN), has made it just as important as internal carriage.

[NickC]

JSM too big to fit in F35B bomb bay. Fits F35A & C.

That's true but its not a big deal. It's a missile with a 300 mile range so losing some stealth to carry it on an external pylon doesn't cost you much, it could be launched well outside of an enemys detection or engagement range..

Kongsberg only claim >100nm range for 917 lbs JSM and if carried externally on F-35B will seriously degrade its stealth capabilities.

Feb 2020 on the US approval of sale of possible 200 LRASM to Australia for its F-18s, USN funding the integration of the LRASM with the F-18, DARPA quoted the 2,500 lbs LRASM longer range AShM as greater than 200nmm, maybe 300 miles?, Have not seen any mention of USAF, Marines or Navy integrating LRASM with F-35.

[Pseudo]

Aren’t the Ossies integrating JSM to their F35s and P8s? If so then NSM is a no brainer IMHO. Start with the 5 sets and then extend to other platforms as funds become available (don’t laugh), I suspect Donald is right and this interim period is going to last a long time.

Would still require additional qualification for the f-35B. So significant cost for the UK.

JSM too big to fit in F35B bomb bay. Fits F35A & C.

According to the manufacturer it can be carried externally. How important is stealth when you’re at standoff range?

I'm probably thinking about this too simplistically, but isn't JSM a low-RCS missile in which case you're mostly talking about to pylons being the main thing compromising the stealth characteristics?

[mr.fred]

“Stealth” isn’t binary, people.