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Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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Aethulwulf
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby Aethulwulf » 18 Sep 2017, 00:35

marktigger wrote:do wonder why a hanger wasn't added during refit?
Any hanger will take up deck space and reduce the LIM available for transporting vehicles or stores.This is true of the 'soft' hangers in use, but they can be easily removed.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Sep 2017, 08:04

Aethulwulf wrote:Any hanger will take up deck space and reduce the LIM available for transporting vehicles or stores.This is true of the 'soft' hangers in use
Not only reduce LIM, but the soft hangar is effectively erected between the cranes, impeding their effective operation whilst in place.

But as the Treasury is normally blamed for everything (incl. the spec w/o hangar), it is actually thx to them that we got two extra (now down to one):
"In April 2000, the MoD released an Invitation to Tender for two ships under a budget of £150 million, with the option to acquire three more. Appledore Shipbuilders, BAE Systems Naval Ships and Swan Hunter submitted tenders, but only Swan Hunter's design met all the tender requirements, at a price of £148 million. A shortfall of work for BAE's Govan yard led to fears that it could not deliver the Type 45 destroyers and Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers planned for later in the decade, so the Treasury agreed to fund an additional two LSDs to be built at Govan."

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 18 Sep 2017, 09:32

marktigger wrote:not much use in a hurricane or major tropical storm I would suspect
I think, RFA and RN already have many experiences, and know how it works, and letting as it is. So, surly it is not a major problem.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby inch » 22 Sep 2017, 22:44

just been looking at the dutch ship karel doorman(hurricane disaster relief) ,what a great ship pity they didn't let us have it for a song a while back before they sensibly decided to keep hold

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Sep 2017, 05:13

inch wrote:pity they didn't let us have it for a song a while back


We can still buy the drawings... like for the Bays. Just making sure this time that the contract is not let to a shipyard that has pitched under cost, just to stave off bankruptcy

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby whitelancer » 23 Sep 2017, 14:48

inch wrote:just been looking at the dutch ship karel doorman

Can't see myself why everyone thinks its so good.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby james k » 23 Sep 2017, 15:39

Me neither. It isn't quite a fleet replenishment ship, it isn't quite a logistic landing ship, it isn't a command and control vessel for an amphibious task group nor is it a PCRS. What is, is a vessel that tries to be all of those things but none particularly well.

whitelancer wrote:
inch wrote:just been looking at the dutch ship karel doorman

Can't see myself why everyone thinks its so good.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 23 Sep 2017, 16:11

whitelancer wrote: Can't see myself why everyone thinks its so good.


By the sounds of things, many in the Dutch Navy are none too impressed with her either.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby R686 » 24 Sep 2017, 00:54

james k wrote:Me neither. It isn't quite a fleet replenishment ship, it isn't quite a logistic landing ship, it isn't a command and control vessel for an amphibious task group nor is it a PCRS. What is, is a vessel that tries to be all of those things but none particularly well.

whitelancer wrote:
inch wrote:just been looking at the dutch ship karel doorman

Can't see myself why everyone thinks its so good.



that's because you looking at it from a perspective of a 2nd tier blue water Navy instead of a much reduced 2nd tier green water Navy, I actually like it.

I tend to look at it in a regional context of a limited self supporting task group. the old Majestic carrier's had the ability to offload fuel to her escorts when an oiler was not available as a means of extending range. the JLSS is the extended version of the jack of all trades master of none

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 24 Sep 2017, 03:57

R686 wrote: from a perspective of [...] a much reduced 2nd tier green water Navy, I actually like it.

I tend to look at it in a regional context of a limited self supporting task group.


100% right; just look at what happened with the Canadian navy. For long the same kind of thing was their front runner candidate; then came Berlin class; then came the thought that they would need two (one for each ocean)' then they refitted an old oiler - one old oiler! Shambles
- whereas the German and the Belgians have been glad to take on part of the cost, and have detachments on the ship

Going back to the blue water perspective, I hope that we are not going to compromise the number of SSSs we are getting, by making them overcomplicated (adding cost). However, the supplying of a force that is already over the beach would need to be accommodated by aviation facilities on par with the Dutch design: 4 Chinooks or 6 medium (never quite sure about the dimensions of Merlin, is it too big to qualify as "medium"?).
- bringing Mexeflotes and LCUs to the party; that's what the Bays are for (don't forget the crane, though!)

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby shark bait » 25 Sep 2017, 14:14

Strip the Dutch requirements back from Karel Doorman, and we have an interesting platform that could be configured for a bunch of different roles. Aviation training and medical are two roles it could fit into very nicely.

I've always wondered if it could be reconfigured as our solid support ship.

It's a nice platform, no where near as nice as the Bay Class, but its pretty neat.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby R686 » 25 Sep 2017, 19:51

shark bait wrote:Strip the Dutch requirements back from Karel Doorman, and we have an interesting platform that could be configured for a bunch of different roles. Aviation training and medical are two roles it could fit into very nicely.

I've always wondered if it could be reconfigured as our solid support ship.

It's a nice platform, no where near as nice as the Bay Class, but its pretty neat.


Gabrielle thought so too,
A good example of support vessel sporting a RoRo deck complete with steel beach is the new multipurpose Dutch Joint Support Ship, the Karel Doorman. This 205 meters long, 28.000 tons vessel is an immensely impressive beast, even if it is the result of many compromises. It can support ships at sea thanks to two RAS masts and a 40 tons crane. It can carry 730 cubic meters of ammunition pallets for some 400 tons of ordnance and 1000 cubic meters of dry stores. She carries 8000 cubic meters of fuel for warships, 1000 cubic meters of aviation fuel and 450 cubic meters of potable water.

In addition to all this, she has 2350 lane meters of Ro-Ro deck, complete with ramp of access and steel beach in the stern for cargo transfer onto landing crafts.

She sports a two-bay operating theatre as part of her medical facilities. She carries a couple of LCVP landing crafts as well as other boats, and she is equipped with an integrated I-Mast with a sensor fit comparable to that of combat vessels. For self defence, she is fitted with two Goalkeeper CIWS, two Oto Melara MARLIN turrets with 30mm guns, four Oto Melara HITROLE remote weapon stations with 12.7 mm machine guns and four SRBOC decoy launchers.

Finally, she has a huge hangar for six NH90 medium helicopters (folded) or two Chinooks unfolded, which can make good use of the huge 80 x 30 meters flight deck.

Her max payload is 10.600 tons, of which up to 5000 tons can be made up by armored vehicles and/or Ro-Ro deck stores. Her crew numbers between 150 and 175 men, with accommodations for 300 people on board. Her max speed is 18 knots, with an endurance of 10.000 nautical miles at 15 knots cruise speed.

The vessel is incredibly impressive and can prove its worth in many different operation scenarios and roles. Its Ro-Ro deck and steel beach provide a visual example of what could be put on MARS SSS, even if, for the reasons covered earlier, a full well dock is desirable.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby SKB » 27 Feb 2018, 17:50

Three interesting videos (by AliOgilvie2008 on Youtube) recording the construction, launch and sea trials of the third Bay Class ship, RFA Cardigan Bay (L3009)

Construction (Laid Down 13th October 2003 at BAE Systems, Govan, Glasgow)


Launch Ceremony (Launched 8-9 April 2005)


Sea Trials (2005-2006)

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby benny14 » 10 Mar 2018, 00:42

Just realized something I dont actually know. Where are the RFA ships based at?

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby KyleG » 10 Mar 2018, 22:26

Argus and the Bays usually call Falmouth home.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby dmereifield » 10 Mar 2018, 23:33

KyleG wrote:Argus and the Bays usually call Falmouth home.


I see the Bays in Plymouth very regularly

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby benny14 » 11 Mar 2018, 00:28

KyleG wrote:Argus and the Bays usually call Falmouth home.

dmereifield wrote:I see the Bays in Plymouth very regularly

It makes sense for the Bays and Argus to be at Falmouth/Plymouth. Any idea about the replenishment fleet? Looks like they might be based in Portland.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Mar 2018, 06:12

benny14 wrote:It makes sense for the Bays and Argus to be at Falmouth/Plymouth.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/ro ... 5214B60F2F

All 10 LCUs seem to have their dedicated place, too. But in the RHS lower corner, are the three flat objects on the ground 3 of our 4 hovercraft? Can't see a ram anywhere near them.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby Caribbean » 11 Mar 2018, 10:17

The LCUs and LCVPs (plus MOD/ Police launches and Archers) use the pens just to the east of the Albions. There is a good shot on Google Earth at the moment (hope the link works!)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/plymouthHarbour/@50.3928367,-4.1870692,292m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Looks like they could be the hovercraft - there's a ramp in front of the buildings, to the south of them. Plus what looks like a small dock for lifting LCVPs and smaller craft out of the water.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby benny14 » 11 Mar 2018, 19:02

Here is an image of both RFA Cardigan Bay and RFA Fort Rosalie at Portland harbor. Have also found many images of the Bays, tankers and replenishment ships along side in recent years.

There is also RFA Sir Tristram in portland harbour, which is used as a training ship by the SBS.

"Mr Bill Reeves, CEO at Portland Port commented “Portland Port and Harbour Authority has continued to work closely with the RFA since taking over responsibility of the harbour. The Tidespring’s call at Portland is evidence of the good relationship between the port and the RFA. The importance of this relationship is integral to Portland’s future as well as its past and it is hoped that this relationship will only grow stronger in years to come.”

Image

Argus seems to be alongside in Falmouth most of the time. Have found evidence of Argus and the tankers visting the southern side of Plymouth several times, looks like the refueling dock.

Image

Can also find evidence of the LCUs and LCVPs been gone from Plymouth while both the Albions are undergoing maintenance. Still cant find any evidence of the Bays been alongside in Plymouth for any long periods of time.

I would say that Argus is based in Falmouth and the Bays are based in Portland. May be the same for the tankers, not sure yet.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby Rambo » 11 Mar 2018, 20:07

Interesting, i wasn't sure of the basing of RFA's either. It seems Falmouth is where the bays and Argus go for maintenance / lay up. The solid stores and oilers + Diligence normally use Birkenhead for the same purpose.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby benny14 » 11 Mar 2018, 21:57

On 6/6/16 we have,
RFA Argus alongside and a RFA Bay in refit in Falmouth.
RFA Fort Rosalie-class alongside in Portland.
RFA Fort Rosalie-class and RFA Wave-class alongside in Birkenhead

Left over: 2 Bays, 1 Wave and 1 Fort Victoria.

RFA Wave Knight was in the Caribbean. One Bay in the Gulf. Then 1 Bay and 1 Fort-Victoria on other duties.

Interesting snipet I found on a RN article. After a long deployment "RFA Wave Knight today returned to Portland."

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby SKB » 01 Aug 2018, 14:24


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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 10 Nov 2018, 11:53


After a successful Caribbean Core Hurricane Season on RFA Mounts Bay, HADR Troop are returning to the UK.
19 men. 13 countries. 6 months. 1 Team.


Surprised it is very small team. But, in the photo at the top-right, there are ~40 troops.
1: Does "19" include Wildcat flight team?
2: Is "19" in addition to some troops always onboard the Bay?

On the other hand, I think the two buggies are very nice to see. On other photo, there is a Pinzgauer (on mexefloat). Both of them can be carried on Munson small LCVP. (http://icefloe.net/LCVP.pdf). If, only if, an air cover is provided in Caribbean ocean, and such small LCVPs are carried, River B2s can cover it?

I think using Bay for HADR roles is perfect. No problem, because amphibious tasking is quite rare in peace time, and Caribbean ocean is near enough from UK so that it can be re-roled for amphibious operation easily and fast enough.

On the other hand, River B2 with a small mission deck aside the crane, 50+ accommodation for soldiers, can do something. For example, hurricane does not always hit only one island. A River B2 with 25knot top speed may cruise at 20knots, and can be sent from UK to help these islands?

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Postby SKB » 03 Dec 2018, 15:16



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