Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Engaging Strategy »

marktigger wrote:If we are starting to train in Belize again how about basing some wildcats, Merlins or Pumas there?

as to Merlin training an updated bay design with a hanger could fulfil the Argus replacement requirement for an aviation training ship, PCRS and Transport?
The reason I suggested Chinooks was because the navy's specialist helicopters are going to be seriously pressed to cover all their needs. the FAA Wildcats and ASW Merlins are already pushed to meet their commitments with the surface fleet. We won't be getting nearly enough of the Merlin HC3s with folding rotors to replace the old Junglie Sea Kings, so the pool of those that we have will need to be available for amphibious duties at short notice.

That basically leaves us with only few options: Army Wildcat, Chinook and Puma. I ruled out the former because its lack of heavy lift capability means it'd struggle with HADR and troop transport/training at BATSUB.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

isn't there few limited conversion Merlin HC3? they could be land based in Belize or 1563 flight could reconstitute with Puma HC2 or leased AW189's

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

yes, surely the Merlin would be better, they could then use the rivers to extend their range if a bay is not available.

I guess we don't have enough Merlin where as we do have a lot of Chinooks. The Chinooks last outing was a bit damp, but it did prove they can be deployed quickly, I suppose its good practice and they could quite easily be flown over if needed.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by GibMariner »

RFA Mounts Bay To Call Into Gibraltar
RFA Mounts Bay will utilise Gibraltar’s Forward Mounting Base facilities when she calls into HM Naval Base on Monday.

The Bay Class Landing Ship will offload three heavy good vehicles via a mexeflote at sea before offloading 42 further vehicles when she is berthed on the jetty.

Whilst in Gibraltar RFA Mounts Bay will undergo a month long period of pre-planned routine maintenance in Gibdock.

RFA Mounts Bay deployed to the Aegean Sea in January where she supported the international response to the migrant crisis by providing a continuous amphibious capability.
http://www.yourgibraltartv.com/society/ ... -gibraltar

Mounts Bay supposedly replaced in the Aegean by RFA Fort Victoria according to BBC defence correspondent Jonathan Beale:


No Gulf tanker?

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by GibMariner »

RFA Mounts Bay arrives at Gibraltar



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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

With Lyme Bay and Mounts Bay in Gibraltar, and Cardigan Bay in the gulf the entire bay class is out and about, and fitted with a hangar. A busy fleet, and incredible value, what more could we want?........ oh yeah the one we flogged to Oz, one of the worse decisions of 2010.

It looks as though the hangar is now a permanent fit, which is good news in rectifying the classes biggest deficiency. I didn't realize that had happened.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by GibMariner »

Mounts Bay & Lyme Bay at Gibraltar


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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote: I guess we don't have enough Merlin where as we do have a lot of Chinooks
As the converted Merlins are rolled out, Ocean can take seven while she is still around. and any number of Bays can take a few more.

So, until we have a carrier with enhanced amphibiosity, we will have plenty of Merlins (what, exactly, is the rate of roll-out of the conversions has not caught my eye... may be it will be slow exactly for this reason?).
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Until we have a carrier with enhanced amphibiosity, we will have plenty of Merlins (what, exactly, is the rate of roll-out of the conversions has not caught my eye... may be it will be slow exactly for this reason?).
All converted by 2020. I suppose the navy should have plenty of HC4's, it is the HM4 fleet where there will be little spare capacilty once the carriers come online.
ArmChairCivvy wrote: The location might be the clue: only fair to have some shade if you are working on the deck for hours in end?
- I wonder what sea state it will take for the hangars to be collapsed/ winched in, against the wall, for them not to be blown away
- I would not be surprised if that is the reason why they are not permanently fitted?
Is that how it works? they are winched in against the wall?
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Gabriele »

The Rubb-produced "onboard storage building" is not foldable. It has a solid steel frame well connected to the deck and a system of cables adding strenght against the wind. It can be dismantled relatively easily when in port and packed into a 40 feet container for storage if required, but it is otherwise absolutely permanent.
All converted by 2020
HC4 deliveries planned to start in September 2017 but will not be completed before 2022.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Wasn't/ isn't there a pre-batch, doing part of the conversion
... and magically the number happens to be 7?

This is all from memory, could be a bit hazy. They will get the full conversion... in due course.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Gabriele »

The 7 HC3 Interim, with the basic level of navalization (indeed, not quite nough of it since i think that without folding tail boom they won't fit HMS Ocean's elevators...) should have all been delivered, by now. They are the stop-gap to cover for the loss of the last few Sea King HC4.

Next phase: getting 9 HC4 ready, for delivery from September 2017.

Final phase: converting to HC4 standard all the others, including the 7 Interim. Project end: march 2022.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

yeap the merlins are causing fun on the 10 tors

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-36232084

had one come into work a few weeks ago you could feel it

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Ianmb17 »

Did not realise the bay's had different radar


Looks like what it replaced is now on top of the mast

Nice comparison of fitted with and without phalanx

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

Good spot! Looks more like a satellite communication antenna to my eye though
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Repulse »

Seems like the Bays are being worked very hard, and the RN is now in the position where they are almost permanently needed in the Med and East of Suez.

This says three things to me:
- A capable dedicated patrol ship is now a must for WIGS, the RFA is overstretched and can no longer be used to fill the gaps. If ordered, the next two "OPVs" must have hangers.
- The SSS is must have a decent vehicle deck and dock to add additional redundancy to the fleet.
- Something must be done to get better usage from the LPDs. Could the 2nd LPD be taken out of reserve with a little more automation and limited capability. If that cannot be done, the RN really needs to start looking at building alternative LPDs, of course 3 San Giorgio type vessels would get my vote.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

the RFA have been spread to thinly and missused for years but the use of them as "Plastic" frigates has masked a more fundemental problem the lack of proper escorts

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

Why a dedicated patrol vessel? why not more bays? Incredible value assets.

SSS has been shown with RORO ramps in the past, which suggests the presence of a vehicle deck. Very sensible, I hope it's still there. However a dock seems like a push too far for me, it's is more important they are excellent replenishment vessels.

No chance of getting the second LPD into service, they're the most expensive ships in the fleet, and too much would have to be cut to afford them.

I don't see the problem with 'plastic frigates' it's getting the largest effect from out constrained resources. I would advocate more Bays, but not in lieu of proper escorts.

It is pretty much a ship that is not a frigate in action today
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

Were I have the issue is the RFA isn't meant to to be in this role it is meant to be carrying out. It is having to step into the role because the Fleet has over the last 20 years been cut back to far. The RFA is meant to be there to support the royal navy not act in lieu of it!

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

The RFA's role has certainly evolved, but I think that's only natural. At the end of the day does it matter what colour ensign are on the assets, as long as the union jack is on there somewhere.

The RFA do a tremendous job, and with great efficiency. If that allows the Royal to focus on delivering high end capabiles like nuclear deterrent and carrier strike then I welcome it.

Whist I have no problem with the RFA picking up these roles, it must not take away from there core objective of sustaining force around the globe.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

and what happens when they try to put the Carrier strike force to sea and have to pull back the RFA's to support it?
It might then be better to help with the escort shortage then to equip the RFA's with CAMM and TASS so they can act in Lieu of escorts on the Carrier Strike force and allow the govenrment to cut the navy escort force back further because that is what will happen when further savings have to be made to pay for the nuclear deterrent or when another government deciide to reduce the defence budget!
The RFA's should be on most of these deployments in support of an Escort not in lieu of one!

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

UK will gather up all available resources from around, when a sudden crisis requiring CV task force to deploy. All the remaining tasks shall be either gapped, later replaced with OPV, or allies. It this a problem?

Arming Bays with CAMM or so results in high cost to operate (as well as purchase), which kills the virtue of Bay class.

Again, escorts in their task, RFA Bays on other tasks, gathering around in emergency to consist a CVTF. Not a bad idea in the limited resources, I think.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by shark bait »

We don't use the bays as escorts, because the bays are incapable of escorting.

We use them as a support ship for assets in the gulf, alongside escorts. We use them for humanitarian missions, where the bays are much better than frigate's. And we use them for amphibious support.

A carrier group will require a tide and a SSS, which the RFA will be well equiped to deliver. It's good that even in tight financial times some one has still pushed to modernise the RFA.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Again, escorts in their task, RFA Bays on other tasks, gathering around in emergency to consist a CVTF. Not a bad idea in the limited resources, I think.
Agreed
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

fit SSS with CAMM & TASS and it can contribute to the Escorts and reduced the numbers of frigates needed even more result Multi purpose platform less money having to be spent on silly warships!!!!

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

marktigger wrote:fit SSS with CAMM & TASS and it can contribute to the Escorts and reduced the numbers of frigates needed even more result Multi purpose platform less money having to be spent on silly warships!!!!
SSS will go back and forth, from port/front-line-base to theater, not always sitting next to the CV. Yes, there will be a need to escort them, but not always. Mounting CAMM to CVF itself will be more sensible, I guess.

On the other hand, I do not know a large hull noisy vessel towing a TASS can do anything meaningful. SSS with CAPTAS-4 will be worse than GPFF or even OPV with CAPTAS-2, I'm afraid.

CAMM is not SeaWolf. A single CAMM (with a range of 20km) ship can cover vessels within ~10km radius. In other words, up to 10-20 vessels, I guess. T23 with SeaWolf can only defend herself and a ship located within 1-2 km. Big difference. But in this case, CAMM needs "local-area air defense capable" hi-end CMS with 3D-radar. I think increasing CAMM cells on GPFF/T26 and even T45 will make much sense than adding 12-24 of them to LPD or SSS.

I admit I maybe wrong, but I do not think a local-area AAW CMS is cheap.

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