Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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GibMariner
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by GibMariner »

From the RN:

RFA Mounts Bay deployment to Aegean Sea
The Prime Minister has announced that naval ship Mounts Bay will support the international response to the migrant crisis in the Aegean Sea.

The Prime Minister has announced that naval ship Mounts Bay will support the international response to the migrant crisis in the Aegean Sea.

As the Prime Minister attends an EU summit on the migration crisis, the Royal Navy is deploying amphibious landing ship royal fleet auxiliary (RFA) Mounts Bay alongside 2 border force cutters to join the NATO mission in the Aegean Sea that aims to reduce the flow of migrants from Turkey to Europe.

RFA Mounts Bay, supported by a Wildcat helicopter, is expected to start operations in the coming days – identifying smugglers taking migrants to Greece and passing the information to the Turkish coastguard so they can intercept these boats.

They will be supported by 3 border force boats – VOS Grace which is already in the Aegean; the cutter Protector which is on its way to the region and a further Border Force cutter that is expected to start operations later this month.
Read more: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... aegean-sea

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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GibMariner wrote:From the RN:

RFA Mounts Bay deployment to Aegean Sea
The Prime Minister has announced that naval ship Mounts Bay will support the international response to the migrant crisis in the Aegean Sea.

The Prime Minister has announced that naval ship Mounts Bay will support the international response to the migrant crisis in the Aegean Sea.

As the Prime Minister attends an EU summit on the migration crisis, the Royal Navy is deploying amphibious landing ship royal fleet auxiliary (RFA) Mounts Bay alongside 2 border force cutters to join the NATO mission in the Aegean Sea that aims to reduce the flow of migrants from Turkey to Europe.

RFA Mounts Bay, supported by a Wildcat helicopter, is expected to start operations in the coming days – identifying smugglers taking migrants to Greece and passing the information to the Turkish coastguard so they can intercept these boats.

They will be supported by 3 border force boats – VOS Grace which is already in the Aegean; the cutter Protector which is on its way to the region and a further Border Force cutter that is expected to start operations later this month.
Read more: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... aegean-sea

Since when Bay-class ships ( in RN service ) started to use rubber helicopter hangar?
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Gabriele »

Been a while. Can't remember when it started, but Cardigan Bay in the Gulf has had its own shelter for years by now.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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The bay is much better suited to this kind of work than any of the assets we have sent before, in fact the bays are good at almost everything, I still upset we sold one. No chance of getting it back, the Ozzie's find it very useful and their defence review plans to upgrade it.

Now we have 2 bays in 2 different seas acting as mother ships for smaller vessels, as people should know I am a big fan of the mother ship concept. :D

Interesting to see the operation is leaning on the border force cutters again rather than the river class. Excellent work from a civilian organisation.

What is the deployment ratio for the bay class? they seem to be kept busy, MOUNTS BAY in the med, CARDIGAN BAY in the gulf, LYME BAY, finished APTN at Christmas.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Caribbean »

VOS Grace. Had to look her up. Seems an odd choice, sending the offshore safety ship
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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shark bait wrote:The bay is much better suited to this kind of work than any of the assets we have sent before, in fact the bays are good at almost everything, I still upset we sold one. No chance of getting it back, the Ozzie's find it very useful and their defence review plans to upgrade it.
:idea: Let's build another couple of Bays, one for us and one for the RAN :lol: :lol: I know...

What is the deployment ratio for the bay class? they seem to be kept busy, MOUNTS BAY in the med, CARDIGAN BAY in the gulf, LYME BAY, finished APTN at Christmas.
I think Mounts Bay spent the better part of 2 years tied up at Falmouth (after returning from Cougar '13) due to lack of engineers/crew shortages. Lyme Bay deployed with Bulwark and Ocean on Cougar '14, returning to UK in December of that year and spent most of 2015 training and as an aviation training ship for the Junglie Merlins before deploying on APTN. Cardigan Bay has been in the Gulf for how many years now? Since 2011?

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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GibMariner wrote: Let's build another couple of Bays, one for us and one for the RAN I know...
We joke, but it would make a nice starting point for the FLF if we we're feeling particularly adventurous. I suppose it doesn't fit the lighter requirement, but it fits the cheaper requirement.


Caribbean wrote:VOS Grace. Had to look her up. Seems an odd choice, sending the offshore safety ship
I origionally dismissed the VOS Grace as another countries contribution, but it is ours which shocked me. The borderforce have chartered a civilian platform supply vessel because of a shortage of platforms. That's quite amazing, it completely slipped past us. It demonstrates the versatility of the PSV, TD's ship that is not a frigate is already happening.
The vessel, the VOS Grace, will deploy on Thursday 5th November until mid April with a detachment of Border Force officers, Royal Marines and a small medical team on board.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home ... an-mission
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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shark bait wrote:Interesting to see the operation is leaning on the border force cutters again rather than the river class. Excellent work from a civilian organisation.
Have no problem with the border force cutters doing this, but the fact that HMS Echo is helping out in the UK EEZ whilst HMS Mersey is away tells me there is no slack there either.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by cpu121 »

shark bait wrote:
Caribbean wrote:VOS Grace. Had to look her up. Seems an odd choice, sending the offshore safety ship
I origionally dismissed the VOS Grace as another countries contribution, but it is ours which shocked me. The borderforce have chartered a civilian platform supply vessel because of a shortage of platforms. That's quite amazing, it completely slipped past us. It demonstrates the versatility of the PSV, TD's ship that is not a frigate is already happening.
The vessel, the VOS Grace, will deploy on Thursday 5th November until mid April with a detachment of Border Force officers, Royal Marines and a small medical team on board.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home ... an-mission
Image
VOS Grace is primarily a Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel rather than Platform Supply Vessel. As well as the low freeboard rescue zone, she carries a Daughter Craft and Fast Rescue Craft, which can be launched rapidly. Worst-case she can safely carry up to 300 survivors. Vessels like her are really the perfect tool for rescuing large numbers from multiple small boats.

She was only delivered in 2015 so this is probably her first charter. It wouldn't be a bad idea for European governments to take advantage of the downturn in the O&G industry to charter more ERRVs for the duration of the crisis. Add a small team of border force/coastguard types, marines and medics and you could probably cover a much larger area than available conventional naval/coastguard vessels.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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cpu121 wrote:VOS Grace is primarily a Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel rather than Platform Supply Vessel. As well as the low freeboard rescue zone, she carries a Daughter Craft and Fast Rescue Craft, which can be launched rapidly. Worst-case she can safely carry up to 300 survivors. Vessels like her are really the perfect tool for rescuing large numbers from multiple small boats.
Ah - that makes sense now - I thought she was more of a pollution control type, but the small boats etc all change the picture. Teamed up with two cutters with their small RIBs and and a Bay with helo and LCU/ LCVP (and probably more RHIBs), they should make quite a difference. Also interesting to see that she was already off Perama when they announced she was joining the other ships
cpu121 wrote:It wouldn't be a bad idea for European governments to take advantage of the downturn in the O&G industry to charter more ERRVs for the duration of the crisis.
Agreed - a very good idea. I would also look a lot less military
Shark Bait wrote:It demonstrates the versatility of the PSV, TD's ship that is not a frigate is already happening
Iy'll be interesting to see how long she's kept in place and also whether there is any official comment on her capabilities.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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Caribbean wrote:
cpu121 wrote:VOS Grace is primarily a Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel rather than Platform Supply Vessel. As well as the low freeboard rescue zone, she carries a Daughter Craft and Fast Rescue Craft, which can be launched rapidly. Worst-case she can safely carry up to 300 survivors. Vessels like her are really the perfect tool for rescuing large numbers from multiple small boats.
Ah - that makes sense now - I thought she was more of a pollution control type, but the small boats etc all change the picture. Teamed up with two cutters with their small RIBs and and a Bay with helo and LCU/ LCVP (and probably more RHIBs), they should make quite a difference. Also interesting to see that she was already off Perama when they announced she was joining the other ships
cpu121 wrote:It wouldn't be a bad idea for European governments to take advantage of the downturn in the O&G industry to charter more ERRVs for the duration of the crisis.
Agreed - a very good idea. I would also look a lot less military
Shark Bait wrote:It demonstrates the versatility of the PSV, TD's ship that is not a frigate is already happening
Iy'll be interesting to see how long she's kept in place and also whether there is any official comment on her capabilities.
or a river with 2 CB90?
with the Bay supporting a merlin, More CB90's , LCU or 2 LCVP

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

amazed they haven't been chartering vessels like VOS Grace for years for patrol and coastguard type work, We did do it before with the 3 Falkland Islands Patrol vessels in the 80's (we even bolted on a couple of Bofors guns).
Given the conditions they are designed to work in they should have no problems dealing with UK EEZ waters. all you need to add is the govt agency type people.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by Dahedd »

marktigger wrote:amazed they haven't been chartering vessels like VOS Grace for years for patrol and coastguard type work

Given the conditions they are designed to work in they should have no problems dealing with UK EEZ waters. all you need to add is the govt agency type people.
Aberdeen harbour always seems packed at the moment so there's probably a few that could be picked up. Civilian crew plus some Coastguard/Border force types & your sorted. Much like the way the CG SAR choppers have alwYs worked.

That said its really about time the UK had a properly funded cohesive Coast guard of its own.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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marktigger wrote:or a river with 2 CB90?
with the Bay supporting a merlin, More CB90's , LCU or 2 LCVP
I would have been interesting to see a River deployed, but presumably the excuse is that we haven't got one spare at the moment, with Mersey in the Caribbean. The B1s could probably ship an additional large RHIB, or a small workboat.

Every time I see the Bays deployed, they seem to be doing something a bit different - such a useful platform - would there be any value in a smaller version as well (with a hangar this time!)
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

they should have been built with hangers to begin with. and we shouldn't have flogged one to the RAN.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by abc123 »

Gabriele wrote:Been a while. Can't remember when it started, but Cardigan Bay in the Gulf has had its own shelter for years by now.
Well, it's a novelty to me, I first saw it at HMAS Choules. ;)
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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marktigger wrote:they should have been built with hangers to begin with. and we shouldn't have flogged one to the RAN.
Fully agreed. ;)
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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GibMariner wrote: Let's build another couple of Bays, one for us and one for the RAN :lol: :lol: I know...
To be honest the RN/RFA have no need for an additional Bay class LPD when you have a Albion class in mothballs.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

Post by marktigger »

given how the RFA are struggling to man what ships they have its not really feasible. Any Batch 2 bays should be more like the Rotterdam class LPD'd they are based on. But one built with a hanger and PCRS would be a good argus replacement?

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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I think we could find a need for them, we actually deploy the bays regularly, and on many different tasks. They are incredibly versatile platforms, especially when fitted with a hangar. With one permanently stationed in the gulf there are only 2 left, so availability is low which is partly RFA crew issues, partly platform issues. If we could somehow build more bays I'd be an advocate for it, especially when we consider it cost less to operate 3 bays than it does 1 Albion.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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marktigger wrote:given how the RFA are struggling to man what ships they have its not really feasible. Any Batch 2 bays should be more like the Rotterdam class LPD'd they are based on. But one built with a hanger and PCRS would be a good argus replacement?
I was actually going to say something similar to that but decided against it,as has been mentioned before LHD are more of a long term priority than as the primary role of RFA is sealift I'd go with HNLS Karel Doorman type JSS one that can move bulk wet and dry supplies as well as troops and machinery

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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R686 wrote:
To be honest the RN/RFA have no need for an additional Bay class LPD when you have a Albion class in mothballs.
It was a joke. Also, I think there's a difference between "having no need" and "not being provided with the required funds". Albion is in refit now to take over next year once Bulwark goes into mothballs.

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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R686 wrote:HNLS Karel Doorman type JSS one that can move bulk wet and dry supplies as well as troops and machinery
Why does it need to move bulk wet supplies? we already have a system in place that uses RFA and civilian tankers for that, which has a vastly greater capacity than the Karel Doorman. I would say adding a wet stores capacity would be a waste of otherwise useful space.

The Karel Doorman is an attractive platform at first, but something like that is only for the smaller navys. For a big globally ranging navy there is much more demand for those capabilities, so more platforms are needed. Studies have shown that for large fleets, lots of dedicated platforms is more efficient than lots of multipurpose platforms, and unsurprisingly thats the route we are taking.
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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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shark bait wrote:
Why does it need to move bulk wet supplies? we already have a system in place that uses RFA and civilian tankers for that, which has a vastly greater capacity than the Karel Doorman. I would say adding a wet stores capacity would be a waste of otherwise useful space.
I don't see it as a wasted space and certantly not a replacement for your tanker & multi stores replenishment capabilty. More of additional capabilty once the Bays retire. They can bring a lot of capabilty for your minor war vessels and HADR. I imagine once things fall into place with the CV your AOR's should be kept pretty busy with the CBG.


shark bait wrote: The Karel Doorman is an attractive platform at first, but something like that is only for the smaller navys. For a big globally ranging navy there is much more demand for those capabilities, so more platforms are needed. Studies have shown that for large fleets, lots of dedicated platforms is more efficient than lots of multipurpose platforms, and unsurprisingly thats the route we are taking.
Well unfortunatly you don't have the assets like the United States nor the manpower or the budget, untill you have a budget that has all assets catered for continuously I can see a future need for multi role ship even in a Navy with global commitment such as the UK

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Re: Bay Class Landing Ship Dock (LSD (A)) (RFA)

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R686 wrote:I don't see it as a wasted space and certantly not a replacement for your tanker & multi stores replenishment capabilty. More of additional capabilty once the Bays retire. They can bring a lot of capabilty for your minor war vessels and HADR. I imagine once things fall into place with the CV your AOR's should be kept pretty busy with the CBG.
Or it could be seen as a duplication of a capability, which results in wasted resources.
R686 wrote: Well unfortunatly you don't have the assets like the United States nor the manpower or the budget, untill you have a budget that has all assets catered for continuously I can see a future need for multi role ship even in a Navy with global commitment such as the UK
No, the study in question directly focused on the Royal Navy. It found that for a small navy, such as the Royal Netherlands Navy, a multipurpose replenishment vessel was the most efficient option. For example the dutch only have one logistics vessel, so they have no choice but to make it multipurpose.

For the smaller navy making the auxiliaries multipurpose offers extra capabilities, at little extra financial cost, but rather at the expense of reducing the primary capability. This is OK because their logistical needs are not so demanding.

For the larger navy, there are much higher performance demands on the logistical fleet, and as such reducing the primary capability becomes unacceptable. The extra cost of building a new platform is offset by the gains in performance and efficiency. The multi-role ship is therefore not a true replacement of single role vessels as it must always compromise some performance aspects.

We may not be the US navy, but we still have a large fleet, which a disproportionately large logistical fleet that we place high performance demands on. When the performance demands are high that compromise costs a lot more than than building specialist platforms which is why we are removing our multipurpose replenishment ships and building brand new massive specialist ships in the search of greater efficiency.

Code: Select all

Navys by major fleet size
_______________________________________________  
Rank   | Country       | Escorts    | Logistcs 
       |               | > 4,000 t  |  Ships
_______|_______________|____________|__________                  
1st    | United States |  84        | 32
2nd    | China         |  42        | 14
3rd    | Japan         |  38        | 5
4th    | Russia        |  21        | 3
5th    | Taiwan        |  20        | 0
6th    | United Kingdom|  19        | 10
7th    | India         |  18        | 3
8th    | Canada        |  15        | 3
9th    | France        |  13        | 3
10th   | Korea (South) |  9         | 6
11th   | Germany       |  7         | 3
12th   | Italy         |  5         | 2
13th   | Spain         |  5         |   
14th   | Denmark       |  5         |   
15th   | Australia     |  4         |   
16th   | Chile         |  4         |   
17th   | Netherlands   |  4         |   
18th   | Brazil        |  3         |   
19th   | Romania       |  3         |   
20th   | Saudi Arabia  |  3         |   
21st   | Egypt         |  2         |   
22nd   | Thailand      |  2         |   
23rd   | Pakistan      |  1         |   
24th   | Morocco       |  1         |   
25th   | Peru          |  1         |  
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