UK Defence Forum

Good news, abt the same (inflation adjusted) as what was paid for the airframes in the first place.

Totally apart from the topic, but as H Baldwin PR team fitted it in, so will I:
"dredging of the harbour to accommodate the carriers’ vast size, including the removal of over three million cubic meters of clay, sand and gravel
debris already cleared includes unexploded ordnance"
- so the first time around, a good job was done; warships sitting v close to those unexploded ones?

marktigger wrote:had heard at BBC SW there was investment comming at yeovil wasn't sure what

Most of the work will be done elsewhere.

dmereifield wrote:Deal just announced

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crow ... ed-uk-jobs

A whole pack of weasels wrote this BS.

Particularly enjoyed the "innovative solution" to providing the radar with 360 view. Pretty sure the bag was invented nearly 40 years ago.

No mention of how many actual Crowsnest kits. I'm assuming a lot less than needed. Say 3 or 4. Which would be the reason for the re-bid.

But hey, didn't make a dent in the 178 billion new equipment plan that dear Harriet loves to wave around.

Ron5 wrote:

marktigger wrote:had heard at BBC SW there was investment comming at yeovil wasn't sure what

Most of the work will be done elsewhere.

yeap but yeovil will be where the modification work needed will be done to the helicopters.. the money for lenardo helicopters cam out on BBC SW on Sunday before the announcement of the rest

will we have 4 ready for 2018 ?

i would say aircraft wise yes

Didn't realize there was a dedicated thread:

xav wrote:Thales press release.... I am still strying to find out how many sets will be delivered... but can't seem to reach Thales right now

Thales contracted to deliver Royal Navy's new airborne surveillance and control capability

Thales and Lockheed Martin announce the contract award to deliver the Royal Navy’s new airborne surveillance and control system, under the ‘CROWSNEST’ programme. Lockheed Martin, who acts as the Ministry of Defence’s prime contractor for the Merlin helicopter, selected a new generation of the Thales Searchwater radar and Cerberus mission system to be fitted to existing Merlin Mk2s helicopters to provide the Navy with an airborne surveillance and control capability (ASaC).

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ility.html

Finally got ahold of them on the phone. Updated with:
Contacted by Navy Recognition, Thales confirmed:
10 role kits will be delivered to the Royal Navy. A role kit consists in:
- Mission subsystem including operator console
- Radar subsystem
- Radome deployment mechanism

30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters will be modified with fixed fittings to accept the role kits.

PAUL MARSAY wrote:will we have 4 ready for 2018 ?

In service 2020. So no.

Xav,
thanks for the update on Crowsnest.

The original MoD announcement made great play on how much kit would be re-used from the old Sea Kings yet your response from Thales implied all new stuff: new radar, new bag, new console. Can you reconcile the two statements?

Good news on the 10 kits. Seems a reasonable number given the financial issues.

10 kits for 250 million. Seams reasonable, shows the value of recycling. Only took them a decade to reach that decision.

shark bait wrote:10 kits for 250 million

Per a/c the same as the original basic airframe, inflation adjusted. So, with no airframes to be bought
... that is 50% off?

with the console surely the software is what generates the image be that radar air surface, acoustic , or air to air picture. and the control interface is what? so shouldn't the operator station be fairly standard its the black boxes supplying it that need changed out

Actually you have it the wrong way round: software changes do not necessarily require "black box" changes. That's why it's called software. As it happens, some of the Merlins computers will be upgraded to be more powerful. Others will stay the same.

The AA tasks are so different from ASW, a new user interface is required and some of that interface is the consoles. Different sized monitors with different characteristic, different knobs,, switches & joysticks. It's like when you go fishing you need a rod and when you go hunting for a bear, you take a rifle. Diff tools for diff jobs.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

shark bait wrote:10 kits for 250 million

Per a/c the same as the original basic airframe, inflation adjusted. So, with no airframes to be bought
... that is 50% off?

It's 250 million for upgrading 30 Mk 2's, support, spares and 10 kits, so to say 25 mill per kit is kinda dumb.

How much would it cost to buy say 8 new-built Merlins- just for this role? Any possibility that it would have been cheaper?

“Backed by our rising Defence budget, and our £178 billion equipment plan, coupled with our diminishing Helicopter Fleet, we have decided to effectively reduce our Merlin Fleet by 10 Airframes, providing first rate AEW coverage for our two Carriers as they sail the Worlds Oceans protecting our Sovereignty Blah ,Blah ,Blah"
Unless they radically increase defence spending soon, there wont be any Helicopters left.

Ron5 wrote:It's 250 million for upgrading 30 Mk 2's, support, spares

Err, I did not do an inflation adjustment for the original £20m per airframe x 10 makes 200
... but I did allow another 25% FOR support and spares

Thereby we arrive at 50/50 between old and new,

ABC only wants 8; I want 30... but I would be glad to see either alternative cost calculation?

25 million per kit isn't dumb, because that's what it's costing to bring the system into service. It's actually more if we consider the 4 studies that preceded this one.

shark bait wrote: if we consider the 4 studies that preceded this one

Seems that we got off lightly; how many years?

abc123 wrote:How much would it cost to buy say 8 new-built Merlins- just for this role? Any possibility that it would have been cheaper?

then you loose the flexibility which is what this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.

marktigger wrote: this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.

This project is about having 30 ASW, to rerole to AEW, almost at will , as the threat picture changes - how many hrs was the switch taking , again?
- we have discussed the other constraints, like the specialists to be available to be in the back etc , before

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

marktigger wrote: this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.

This project is about having 30 ASW, to rerole to AEW, almost at will , as the threat picture changes - how many hrs was the switch taking , again?
- we have discussed the other constraints, like the specialists to be available to be in the back etc , before

Don't know why, but that reminds me on stories about QE-class carriers being easily convertible into CATOBARs...

Still think we need more Merlins.

abc123 wrote:Don't know why

I agree with you

Would anyone really be surprised if we ended up with half a dozen Merlins permanently reroled as AEW aircraft?