Project Crowsnest (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Why would you do the switch under normal circumstances ? If not for practice.

But the fact remains that it can be done if scarce assets will have to be prioritised, to meet reassessed threat scenarios.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Pseudo wrote:Would anyone really be surprised if we ended up with half a dozen Merlins permanently reroled as AEW aircraft?
I guess I would. I think as each Merlin gets cycled through maintenance, the kits will be moved to keep the same number of AEW assets available and keep the fleet of Merlins all reasonably similar in terms of hours & service.

And yes, I agree more Merlins are needed.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:And yes, I agree more Merlins are needed.
I think we all agree on that. Don't think there is much hope on that front at present. Personally I think we missed a trick when the US was selling off the 9 VH-71's. The Canadians ended up paying $164m for 9 air frames and a tonne of spares which is fantastically good business. Pity we didn't have any spare cash down the back of the sofa at the time.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I agree. And we have been at it before
- Merlins from Denmark (would the US 9 have been closer in config?)
- Pumas from S. Africa
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

bobp wrote:Still think we need more Merlins.
yes we do enough to replace the wildcat in fleet air arm

Dahedd
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Dahedd »

A tad OT but just above Armchaircivvy mentioned Pumas from S/Africa. Given the entire north sea Super Puma fleet is grounded, possibly to never fly again is there any merit in the RAF going shopping? Even if just for spares.

Lord Jim
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

I cannot see CROWSNEST being installed removed on board the Carriers. This is almost certainly going to happen when an existing CROWSNEST Merlin going into deep maintenance, so we will probably have six installations at any given time. The plus side is any Merlin HM2 can become the host so it will never drop below that as I am pretty sure the RN will place AEW&C above ASW in priorities.

We probably have just enough Merlins at present to cover the two roles and I assume the Wildcat will still be able to carry and drop ASW Torpedoes and Depth Charges (we still have those I think) As with the planned F-35 fleet, if the balloon goes up and we need a fully equipped CVBG then every flyable airframe will be on the Carrier and in the case of the Merlin anything else with a big enough flight deck. If we are the sole carrier then priority will go to the F-35 and CROWSMEST Merlins on the CV with the ASWs on alternatives. If the ARG is also deployed we have a problem with pads for the HC4s, probably living on the Amphibs unless the second CVF is actually available in a timely manner.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Dahedd wrote: Super Puma
Super Puma is quite different (and, unlike Puma, at home at sea).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: we will probably have six installations at any given time.
Lord Jim wrote:pretty sure the RN will place AEW&C above ASW in priorities.
Lord Jim wrote:CROWSMEST Merlins on the CV with the ASWs on alternatives.
Lord Jim wrote:problem with pads for the HC4s, probably living on the Amphibs unless the second CVF is actually available in a timely manner.
Agree with the last three quotes (let us count how many pads can be added from the RFA side; hangars and all, unlike on the amphibs)

As fo the first one, if one Merlin is being handled in the process of deep maintenancing (nouns to verbs is normal military practice) that makes it one set less, momentarily. How do we get down from the remaining 9, to 6?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Only if you plan for zero attrition and every Merlin always available, does the Navy have enough. Of course that's a totally unrealistic plan but keeps the Treasury happy. Woopee.

Lord Jim
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

Well the one in the down HM2 will also probably get a full service and if everything is scheduled one of the HM2s coming out of deep maintenance will have been fitted out as a CROWSNEST carrier keeping the fleet at 6. The remaining 3 will be either in storage or undergoing deep maintenance themselves, and knowing the MoD one will almost certainly be in pieces to provide urgent spares for the rest of the fleet.

This is where CROWSNEST is a big step forward over the AEW&C Sea Kings. To have all sets installed would remove a third of our Merlin HM2 fleet from being available for anything else. With CROWSNEST we can always have say 6 HM2 equipped as such and 12+ HM2s available for ASW whist having a comprehensive maintenance programme to maintain these numbers. With 10 dedicated AEW&C airframes we would be lucky to have 5 or even 4 available at anyone time, with a similar ration in the ASW force.

AEW&C will get priority in all areas to maintain its availability over the ASW fleet due to the needs of the carrier, but with say 8 on the carrier and at least 2 more on the escorts if not 4 that is actually better ASW helicopter coverage than a US CVBG has, especially as the Merlin HM2 is a far better ASW platform then the SH-60R.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by shark bait »

The reduction in availability of the ASW Merlin is not a good thing, but neither is a creating a new Merlin variant.

A single swing role platform is the right way forward, just need a few more of them.
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

The Merlin/CROWSNEST is not a swing role platform, it required major work to remove and install new terminals etc., and this will probably done ashore during maintenance. It can be done on deployment I am sure but I doubt it will unless absolutely necessary And I doubt spare full sets will be carried aboard, rather the planned spare parts inventory.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by shark bait »

It suppose to be done at sea in a couple of hours, that's why I used the term swing role.

Didn't think the term multi-role was suitable, that suggests both at the same time, which is not true in this case.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:Didn't think the term multi-role was suitable, that suggests both at the same time,
Agree on the terminology. Not even necessarily at the same time (can be), but without modification (other than the type of ordnance loaded) between sorties.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
shark bait wrote:Didn't think the term multi-role was suitable, that suggests both at the same time,
Agree on the terminology. Not even necessarily at the same time (can be), but without modification (other than the type of ordnance loaded) between sorties.
A simple question. It is clear the high operation altitude of AEW will not allow FLASH dipping sonar operation. But, can Merlin in AEW handle sonobuoy using its transducer? Or even deploy sonobuoy itself?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:can Merlin in AEW handle sonobuoy using its transducer?
A good question as the p8s can also drop loadsa sonobuoys that will keep transmitting long since the MPA will have departed.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
shark bait wrote:Didn't think the term multi-role was suitable, that suggests both at the same time,
Agree on the terminology. Not even necessarily at the same time (can be), but without modification (other than the type of ordnance loaded) between sorties.
A simple question. It is clear the high operation altitude of AEW will not allow FLASH dipping sonar operation. But, can Merlin in AEW handle sonobuoy using its transducer? Or even deploy sonobuoy itself?
No. AEW software/systems replaces ASW. They do not coexist.

I thought swing role meant changing role during a mission as in Typhoon swinging from bomber to fighter after bomb drop.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by S M H »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:A good question as the p8s can also drop loadsa sonobuoys that will keep transmitting long since the MPA will have departed.
The salt plug in the sonar buoy will put the sonar buoy in Davey Jones locker soon after the M.P.A. has left the area. They used to recover training sonar buoys. Then when in the late 70s the new buoys came out . The cost fell so much they fitted them with a salt plug and printed circuit boards that react with saltwater to lose there tracking.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

OK, two questions:

1) When we compare future British AEW Merlins with existing Italian AW101 HEW Merlins, wich one is better?

2) On what altitude should Merlin AEW fly during airspace surveillance?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

abc123 wrote:OK, two questions:

1) When we compare future British AEW Merlins with existing Italian AW101 HEW Merlins, wich one is better?

2) On what altitude should Merlin AEW fly during airspace surveillance?

Nobody?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

abc123 wrote:OK, two questions:

1) When we compare future British AEW Merlins with existing Italian AW101 HEW Merlins, wich one is better?

2) On what altitude should Merlin AEW fly during airspace surveillance?
1) Rumors are that the Italian navy are not that impressed with their AEW. On the other hand, the UK system has many admirers including the USN which upgraded it's E-3's to match. The UK are so happy, they basically kept the same system and just switched airframes.

2) Depends on weather & situation, say between 10k & 15k feet? Don't ask me for meters, don't understand the darn things. Between 100 and 150 nm radar horizon.

abc123
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

Ron5 wrote:
abc123 wrote:OK, two questions:

1) When we compare future British AEW Merlins with existing Italian AW101 HEW Merlins, wich one is better?

2) On what altitude should Merlin AEW fly during airspace surveillance?
1) Rumors are that the Italian navy are not that impressed with their AEW. On the other hand, the UK system has many admirers including the USN which upgraded it's E-3's to match. The UK are so happy, they basically kept the same system and just switched airframes.

2) Depends on weather & situation, say between 10k & 15k feet? Don't ask me for meters, don't understand the darn things. Between 100 and 150 nm radar horizon.
Thanks.

http://www.meters-to-feet.com/feet-to-meters.php
:)
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Ha ha.

Very close to where I live, the freeway for a short way down to the boarder with Mexico, is marked in kilometers. I don't know what bright spark in the highway dept thought that was a good idea because it confuses the heck out of us locals. And only the freeway, local roads are 100% in miles.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

Lord Jim wrote:The Merlin/CROWSNEST is not a swing role platform, it required major work to remove and install new terminals etc., and this will probably done ashore during maintenance. It can be done on deployment I am sure but I doubt it will unless absolutely necessary And I doubt spare full sets will be carried aboard, rather the planned spare parts inventory.
interesting when i talked with a couple of HM2 crews they are under the impression the conversion can be done at sea to any merlin and the consoles can be taken out and replaced. and its a plug in and play system

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