UK Defence Forum

Repulse wrote: last thing should be to throw away what you have that works and only halfway through their useful lifespan.

Sounds like the sunk cost fallacy

For me people keep saying the RM needs to do this it needs to do that it needs a job and so on. But it has one and it is about to become high stakes the RM's job is to support the High North along with Norway , US and Holland and it is the Armies job to support the centre of NATO with this in mind what the RN/RM needs is 1 x LPD , 1 x LPH and 3 Bay class and to stop looking please. There will be money to made in the High North for UK companies so HMG should invest in the RM to protect it

The word “Vanguard” normally means advance party - there needs to be something that follows up. Each Cdo currently has 5 Companies, so 40 RM Cdo + 45 RM Cdo would give 10 Companies. Working on two LRG’s and a rotation of three then you’d have though two Vanguard Companies deployed (one on each LRG) and a ready surge group of 3 Companies that could be quickly deployed for larger ops.

For me the the LRG should be an LPD plus a support RFA that also can carry 3-6 Merlins. A Bay could then be added for a ASG (Amphibious Strike Group).

Repulse wrote: The word “Vanguard” normally means advance party - there needs to be something that follows up

But is that follow up force not something that an alliance member provides or the army something able to operate against a Russia type force.

The advance party provides intelligence, reconnaissance, long range patrol ect.

SW1 wrote:or the army

That is an option, and a globally deployable “Strike Brigade” or whatever it’s called after the next SDSR is a must. To rely totally on allies would be a step too far. It would need enough RFAs and Points as part of a restructured Army Logistics Corps however to make it at all credible.

If we go down the pure “Vanguard” approach, then I’d see the Army need to structure the Paras in the same way with ability to join for maximum effect.

shark bait wrote:Yeah that would be great, however that's a cost adder at at time when the Marines really need to be cheaper. That's what this whole thing is about right? The Marines need to be cheaper to use.

But it looks like we're getting something like BMT Elida anyway.
And this would be cheaper than a dedicated LPH and LSS's.
Does that count as being cheaper?

Repulse wrote:The word “Vanguard” normally means advance party - there needs to be something that follows up. Each Cdo currently has 5 Companies, so 40 RM Cdo + 45 RM Cdo would give 10 Companies. Working on two LRG’s and a rotation of three then you’d have though two Vanguard Companies deployed (one on each LRG) and a ready surge group of 3 Companies that could be quickly deployed for larger ops.

For me the the LRG should be an LPD plus a support RFA that also can carry 3-6 Merlins. A Bay could then be added for a ASG (Amphibious Strike Group).

This is why I made the point about seeing what remains in the smoking ruin of 3Cdo brigade when the dust settles...
If there is no Commando21 regiment anymore, will there still be five companies in a Commando?
Will a commando still have 692 people?
We're already talking about smaller formations in the army at the same time we're talking about turning the marines into a raiding force... dangerous to assume we'll still have 3.5 x 692 Marine Commandos.

Repulse wrote:

SW1 wrote:or the army

That is an option, and a globally deployable “Strike Brigade” or whatever it’s called after the next SDSR is a must. To rely totally on allies would be a step too far. It would need enough RFAs and Points as part of a restructured Army Logistics Corps however to make it at all credible.

If we go down the pure “Vanguard” approach, then I’d see the Army need to structure the Paras in the same way with ability to join for maximum effect.

I think it maybe appropriate to rely on allies in parts of the world were we are not a dominate player.

Yes absolutely the Israelis are streamlining and generating a force very similar to what you could do with the paras.

SW1 wrote:maybe appropriate to rely on allies in parts of the world were we are not a dominate player.

I think it’s fine that we assume a supporting role in land operations especially in the Far East, however we need to retain the ability to do it West of Suez, so it could be there if ever needed.

jedibeeftrix wrote:But it looks like we're getting something like BMT Elida anyway.

Does it? Where?

shark bait wrote:

jedibeeftrix wrote:But it looks like we're getting something like BMT Elida anyway.

Does it? Where?

well, i should say it looks like the point class with a flight desk in the early renders, but i used some lazy shorthand to associate the reduced requirement of the LRG with the elida concept renders. My bad.

Of course there is also the possibility that some of the RA/RHA Regiments will retain or gain the green Beret and be allocated to provide the precision fires in operations where they need to be landed by sea or air to establish a counter A2/AD zone once the RM have secured an area. To this you can add Engineers and other supporting assets like Air Defence and EW units, some coming from exisiting RM units and others from the Army with the appropriate training and equipment.

The king is dead, all hail the king!

Breaking 3Cdo to make it anew?

So long as it is not a case of “The King’s New Clothes”!

Glanced at the MST brochure when looking at the Gibraltar Squadron replacement boats, the 1100 Submersible looks interesting, wonder if they’ve sold any already?

https://www.mstltd.com/wp-content/uploa ... 16-web.pdf

I know I’m going to get flack for verging in fantasy land, but if money was less of a problem I would say the perfect platform for a Vanguard RM Company would be a variant of the new Kalaat Beni-Abbes LPD.

It has:
- Space for 200-400 RMs
- 3 LCVPs
- upto 3 larger landing craft
- Flexible hangar / garage deck
- Merlin capable flight deck (2 spots)
- Ability to store / maintain Wildcats / UAVs

Repulse wrote:I know I’m going to get flack for verging in fantasy land, but if money was less of a problem I would say the perfect platform for a Vanguard RM Company would be a variant of the new Kalaat Beni-Abbes LPD.

It has:
- Space for 200-400 RMs
- 3 LCVPs
- upto 3 larger landing craft
- Flexible hangar / garage deck
- Merlin capable flight deck (2 spots)
- Ability to store / maintain Wildcats / UAVs

This class of ship has a cost of $291 million for maybe around 100 million dollars you could have a 160 meter Makassar class fitted out how we want and would do the same if not a better job

Tempest414 wrote:This class of ship has a cost of $291 million for maybe around 100 million dollars you could have a 160 meter Makassar class fitted out how we want and would do the same if not a better job

Very different ship - better to use the Bays than buy new Makassar class ships. The strategy seems to be more focused on complementing the RMs with high tech surface, air and land systems - it needs a platform that can operate these not glorified civilian transport ships.

Repulse wrote:I know I’m going to get flack for verging in fantasy land, but if money was less of a problem I would say the perfect platform for a Vanguard RM Company would be a variant of the new Kalaat Beni-Abbes LPD.

It has:
- Space for 200-400 RMs
- 3 LCVPs
- upto 3 larger landing craft
- Flexible hangar / garage deck
- Merlin capable flight deck (2 spots)
- Ability to store / maintain Wildcats / UAVs

Without armament?

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Without armament?

Good question, one that I avoided as the focus should be on what it gives the RMs, which should be a flexible floating base, rather than just a transport ship to get from A to B.

Having said that the armament of the Kalaat Beni-Abbes is interesting with a 76mm gun and 8 cell VLS.

I was actually thinking of having a Kalaat type LPD as a self escorting ( maybe a few more CAMM ) raiding type multi mission ship

Repulse wrote:

Tempest414 wrote:This class of ship has a cost of $291 million for maybe around 100 million dollars you could have a 160 meter Makassar class fitted out how we want and would do the same if not a better job

Very different ship - better to use the Bays than buy new Makassar class ships. The strategy seems to be more focused on complementing the RMs with high tech surface, air and land systems - it needs a platform that can operate these not glorified civilian transport ships.

All the things you talk about can be operated off a any ship that has a dock. The one thing the RN and RM don't need is a toy LHD if we had a spare 600 million dollars going then build something that will really work like a new Enforcer LPD

The sort of platform the Royal Navy is going to be looking for if it continues to pursue this new doctrine, is one that can embark and land no more than a reinforces Royal Marine Company operating in the Light Infantry Role with few if any vehicles. These along with the main logistics and support units would arrive in the second phase form an Albion either by Landing Craft of Helicopters from a Carrier lilly padding off the LPD. They want the craft to be non threatening, whatever that means as well as have a measure low observability so reduced RCS etc. They do not want it to have more than the rudimentary self defence capabilities of existing amphibious vessels as it is expected to be escorted by a T-31 or possibly a T-26 when conducting operations, as well as having air cover provided by the Carrier. So to sum up they are setting the bar very low as far as capabilities are concerned, and I have more than a few issues with this to put it mildly.

Still sounds like a P&O ferry

Mind you a P&O Ferry would have far better facilities for the troops than an RFA.

Good pictures of 846 Flight from the CHF training on RFA Fort Victoria. Shows the flexibility of the vessel - combined with an Albion it would give a solid core for any Vanguard group.