Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[shark bait]

then surely the answer is more Merlin rather than inventing a new Chinook.

[SW1]

then surely the answer is more Merlin rather than inventing a new Chinook.

Assuming merlin can lift what you want to the places you need it in the climate conditions and elevations you need it to. Invent what?

[ArmChairCivvy]

You could always order a dozen new build special mission chinooks with some extra features

Yes, was it 16... a baker's dozen, taking into account the complexities of keeping modern-day tech "on the road"

[SKB]

A baker's dozen is 13.

[Lord Jim]

I cannot remember ever seeing it stated that the Royal Marines wanted SF standard Chinooks to replace the old Commando Sea Kings. To start with the Chinook is not a maritime platform, lacking numerous features it would need to become one and all of which cost money, and these are above and beyond folding rotor blades. Yes once ashore I am sure they appreciate the capabilities of the Chinook from their experience in Afghanistan. The role carried out by the Merlin HC4s has required a fair amount of modernisation from the HC2/3, and the Merlin is a lot closer to a maritime platform than the Chinook. If you want a heavy lift platform operating off ship to move kit ashore you buy the CH-53.

[SW1]

I cannot remember ever seeing it stated that the Royal Marines wanted SF standard Chinooks to replace the old Commando Sea Kings. To start with the Chinook is not a maritime platform, lacking numerous features it would need to become one and all of which cost money, and these are above and beyond folding rotor blades. Yes once ashore I am sure they appreciate the capabilities of the Chinook from their experience in Afghanistan. The role carried out by the Merlin HC4s has required a fair amount of modernisation from the HC2/3, and the Merlin is a lot closer to a maritime platform than the Chinook. If you want a heavy lift platform operating off ship to move kit ashore you buy the CH-53.

We are going back to the time of Gordon brown and the lack of helicopters debate. There was to be 26 f model chinooks purchased to expand helicopter capacity that was later reduced to 14 outstanding 12 were “allegedly” earmarked for commando helicopter force. However there was no money so the decision was move merlin from the airforce to the marines. In operations in the gulf and for certain operations having to traverse certain coast lines were large cliffs were present merlins lifting ability would have ruled it out and chinook would of needed to be assigned.

Corrosion treatments and wet assembly from build is much easier retrospectively doing it. If there role is to transition to global support to special forces then special forces equipped chinooks would likely be preferred and as we intend to order some very shortly about 12 in total you could see a merging of requirement.

[Repulse]

Maybe a V-22 order?

[serge750]

That would be brilliant and they would look so good in British colours !! if only lots of money was available for defence now....

[Repulse]

serge750, dreaming of course, but the V-22 has twice the range of the Merlin (allowing the CVF more sea space) it could also do COD and AAR (for the F35Bs). Could be a game changer.

[Lord Jim]

Mind you a fully pimped out special forces grade Chinook is also very expensive so the difference could be less than expected. The Chinook will still be cheaper but the benefits of the V-22 could come into play. An initial purchase of say 12 would open up a lot of future possibilities further down the road like AAR and AEW if the FAA were so inclined.

We also need a platform able to carry roughly 12 fully equipped troops for the AAC to give 16 Air Assault some integral list capability instead of relying on the RAF's Chinook force who are having ever more demands placed upon it. There are more than a few OTS platforms out there and say 24 to equip a Regiment as well as provide training platforms would be a ideal.

In the meantime convert the Army's Wildcats into light attack/Armed Recce platforms, marinized along the line of their FAA cousins and allocate one squadron to the FAA as a dedicated support force for the Merlin HC4s, reducing the need to embark Apaches in that role.

Like so many other areas of defence we are now seeing the much vaunted "Bow Wave" of procurement needs rapidly approaching. There is no betting around it the MoD needs more money now, for all areas of its budget, e it new kit, recruitment and retention, spares and so on. IF no new money is forth coming it is quite possible our Armed Forces will fall below the line where it becomes increasing difficult to conduct even basic tasks and operation as beings a downward spiral that will require ever increasing funds just to slow down let alone halt or reverse.

[shark bait]

Keep it simple stupid.

The guy says he wants to lift 120 commandos, the solution is 4-6 Merlin.

[ArmChairCivvy]

to lift 120 commandos, the solution is 4-6 Merlin.

US spec for Chinook troop lift is 33 (+3 crew), so three of them would do the first hundred in one go (if the recce element have gone ahead in stealthy boats, then delete "first")
- three Chinooks does not translate to 3 such spots
- e.g. in the Points conversion, a lift under the superstructure could feed them to that spot, while from the forward "ramp" as it is today... more likely to become a shelter or the upper end of a smaller lift, a Wildcat (mentioned!) could be part of a near-simultaneous take off

[Poiuytrewq]

The guy says he wants to lift 120 commandos, the solution is 4-6 Merlin.

If so, where does that leave the FLSS concept?

[Poiuytrewq]

- three Chinooks does not translate to 3 such spots
- e.g. in the Points conversion, a lift under the superstructure could feed them to that spot, while from the forward "ramp" as it is today... more likely to become a shelter or the upper end of a smaller lift, a Wildcat (mentioned!) could be part of a near-simultaneous take off

The 4 Merlin, 2 landing spot configuration always looked insufficient to me hence the reason why I have always suggested a 6 Merlin capacity and 3 landing spots. It would appear relatively straightforward to incorporate a 1000sqm hanger within the superstructure of the Prevail MRV.

Prism Defence have also rearranged the MRV flight deck configuration to allow 3 landing spots.

Lots of updated info on the MRV design here: https://cdn.flipsnack.com/widget/v2/fli ... llscreen=1

Perhaps the solution is to have an MRV working in conjunction with other vessels within the LSG. Something like BMT's ELLIDA would seem like a good starting point. https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-foc ... l-concept/

[Tempest414]

Keep it simple stupid.

The guy says he wants to lift 120 commandos, the solution is 4-6 Merlin.

I would agree at this time Merlin backed up Chinook as needed will do for now however going forward something like V-22 with its greater range and speed will be needed given the thinking now

[SW1]

1 assault group is no more

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... me-revived

1 Assault Group Royal Marines – the marines’ amphibious warfare experts – will now be known as 47 Commando Raiding Group, reinvigorating a unit name that not only gives a nod to the past but also to the future of 3 Commando Brigade

[Repulse]

The 4 Merlin, 2 landing spot configuration always looked insufficient to me hence the reason why I have always suggested a 6 Merlin capacity and 3 landing spots.

Like currently on RFA Argus - though historically I believe Argus had 5 spots.

[Poiuytrewq]

Like currently on RFA Argus - though historically I believe Argus had 5 spots.

Maybe, but Argus is a totally different proposition to the Prevail MRV. It all depends on how RN want to structure the LSG and at present this is far from clear.

One thing is for sure, new vessels will need to be procured to enable the change of direction for the Royal Marines but other vessels will have to make way to facilitate the new arrivals.....

[SW1]

Keep it simple stupid.

The guy says he wants to lift 120 commandos, the solution is 4-6 Merlin.

But is that not an interpretation, the article simply said the strike group would contain 120 commandos. Didnt say they’d all have to be moved by air all at once, some maybe in raiding boats or command elements.

Are they all air lifted together? If it’s in the gulf in summer you be needing more merlins.

[Repulse]

Maybe, but Argus is a totally different proposition to the Prevail MRV. It all depends on how RN want to structure the LSG and at present this is far from clear.

Agreed, though (and I need to find the link) I’ve read that the RN has discussing three Vessel types that can act independently, but combined to give greater (probably Cdo level) effect.

One thing is for sure, new vessels will need to be procured to enable the change of direction for the Royal Marines but other vessels will have to make way to facilitate the new arrivals.....

Maybe... I’m still assuming these will be variations on the LPD, LPH/ASS/FLSS and LSD. I’d say the best raiding platform (via fast craft) remains the LPD, we just need to lower the cost / effort of operating the two we have already.

[Poiuytrewq]

three Vessel types that can act independently, but combined to give greater (probably Cdo level) effect.

It would be a great outcome if the LSG structure was to be this ambitious. A FLSS, Wave and Bay would be ideal plus whatever escorts that were deemed necessary. Efficient, scalable and affordable.

I’m still assuming these will be variations on the LPD, LPH/ASS/FLSS and LSD.

Is it really affordable to retain all these vessels in the medium to long term? Seems unlikely.

I’d say the best raiding platform (via fast craft) remains the LPD, we just need to lower the cost / effort of operating the two we have already.

Acting Independently the LPD's are critically hamstrung by a lack of embarked aviation. Acting as part of a group they are fantastically versatile. Will both LPD's survive the change of direction as the Royal Marines prioritise Littoral Strike? I would give it 50/50 at best.

[Lord Jim]

We have the opportunity with the FLSS to build a platform that can be a bridge in capability between existing vessels and those the Royal Navy and Royal Marines will need to instigate their new form of operations.

I agree an LPD is a good platform from which to conduct "Raiding" operations, but the Albions are, as pointed out, hamstrung by their lack of aviation facilities. This is why the successor to both the Albions and Bays must have integral aviation facilities, ideally scalable dependant on the operation.

However for the new vessels to arrive in a timely manner, serious work really needs to be starting now which is why the FLSS could be a good place to start as could the modification of one of the Bays turning it into a platform more like the Enforcer designs built for other countries. The later option would not be cheap but it should probably still be cheaper then a totally new vessel and if done right, including modular and containerised functionality to maximise the vessels flexibility, provide a good demonstrator to aid the design of the next generation whish boosting the aviation capabilities of the Amphibious flotilla.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Prism Defence have also rearranged the MRV flight deck configuration to allow 3 landing spots.

Thanks for that brochure update. The marketing pages have even 2+2 (though the 4th, one of the two light helos seems to be for parking, so that really is 3 then). Notable that Chinooks are by the superstructure and the lighter ones closer to the bow section.
- also, it is stated "at least one" Chinook... meaning that the lift has not been sized yet!

new vessels will need to be procured

Yes, but that does not (necessarily) mean new build. In fact the brochure talks about conversion. Again: might be for a ship purchased from trade. The Points sold share the ability pf others to get to/through shallow places. But they had bigger engines, which added speed might come in handy in an "intervention" role.

serious work really needs to be starting now

£35 mln has been spent. When talking about a conversion that should translate to a pretty detailed design.

[Lord Jim]

Yes, with similarities to the amount of work undertaken on Argus throughout her career.

[Repulse]

With about another 400 sailors (100 RFA and 300 RN) and a modest amount of money to lease two FLSS, the RN could actually have two Littoral Strike Groups, each made up of a LPD, LSD, FLSS and a Wave Tanker, whilst still leaving the third Bay still in the Gulf. When you stop and think about it, that would be an impressive capability in its own right.

Late 2020s the two Waves could be replaced by two new ships based on something like the BMT Ellida design - that would further add to the LSG.

Sounds pragmatic and affordable - especially if coupled with additional RM/raiding craft capabilities on the new frigates, with back up from a CSG.

One thing I do wonder with the charter for the Points due to expire in the mid 2020s (2024?), should they be replaced with a charter for larger ships capable of carrying troops as well as kit, geared to transport an Army Strike Brigade. Sounds affordable also.