Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[Repulse]

The bulk of the logistics would still be carried by two or three Bay replacements with aviation facilities.

Aux LHA transporting the helicopter assets of this formation into theatre

Assuming RFA Argus is replaced on a like-to-like basis, then this plus the Points and Bays are capable to ferry a significant helicopter to theatre.

Overall, perhaps with the exception of adding another Bay (to replace the one lost), I’d say the RFAs ability to transport a follow up force globally is pretty solid and remains second only to the USN (and probably soon China).

Where the future fleet remains exposed is supporting the initial attacking force. Putting RFAs close to shore in danger is criminal, as the loss of RFA Sir Galahad in Bluff Cove showed in 82. OTH might be okay, but I still fear that the distance/room for manoeuvre you’d want with your CVF makes it difficult in a single force.

That is why my fantasy option remains a warship/LPH hybrid (old Helicopter Cruiser) which can fight, operating LVCP sized fast craft. It would be able to get close to shore and dominate the landing zone locally.

[Lord Jim]

That was the reason I mentioned the RFAs/Amphibs being at least 100km off shore OTH and the Carrier operating further out still exactly to give her room to manoeuvre. I would also say that 100km could be the minimum distance given what sensor systems could be operational above and beyond traditional coastal radar.

[Repulse]

That was the reason I mentioned the RFAs/Amphibs being at least 100km off shore OTH and the Carrier operating further out still exactly to give her room to manoeuvre. I would also say that 100km could be the minimum distance given what sensor systems could be operational above and beyond traditional coastal radar.

If you have your RFAs operating in a separate group far from your CVF you would need to split the Escort group also, and also potentially additional escorts to cover the 2nd wave RFA group bringing in the Army brigade - which given current numbers seems a stretch to say the least.

I do get the OTH concept, but with large ships sat 50+nm offshore and using just ship-to-shore connectors, which be have a 15min journey for a helicopter and a 1hr+ journey for a v.fast landing craft, it doesn’t feel it can scale beyond a small hit and run type operation.

Again, this is why it leads back to me thinking we need a large warship/LPH combo that can get closer to shore, reducing transit times and adding firepower to support the assault. Maybe the front half of an old fashioned Monitor and a backend of a helicopter cruiser.

[Jake1992]

That was the reason I mentioned the RFAs/Amphibs being at least 100km off shore OTH and the Carrier operating further out still exactly to give her room to manoeuvre. I would also say that 100km could be the minimum distance given what sensor systems could be operational above and beyond traditional coastal radar.

If you have your RFAs operating in a separate group far from your CVF you would need to split the Escort group also, and also potentially additional escorts to cover the 2nd wave RFA group bringing in the Army brigade - which given current numbers seems a stretch to say the least.

I do get the OTH concept, but with large ships sat 50+nm offshore and using just ship-to-shore connectors, which be have a 15min journey for a helicopter and a 1hr+ journey for a v.fast landing craft, it doesn’t feel it can scale beyond a small hit and run type operation.

Again, this is why it leads back to me thinking we need a large warship/LPH combo that can get closer to shore, reducing transit times and adding firepower to support the assault. Maybe the front half of an old fashioned Monitor and a backend of a helicopter cruiser.

A modern day version of your idea seems to be what the USN want to do with the San Antonio class.
They already have decent defensive measures but are looking to add Mk41s to give them a punch as well.

[SW1]

I can’t see it being any more realistic for the UK than a RM commando taking and securing a unprotected or low protected beach.

So what are you planning for them to do once you’ve secured this beach? You simply aren’t putting a mechanised brigade or an armoured one over a beach. The marines at best have company armour manoeuvre in the form of Viking and that’s only against light opposition and there’s no replacement for cvrt unless you plan to use Ajax. There main mode of transport will be helicopter or walk and there desperately short of helicopters.

I don’t know it’s replacement is going to want to have similar lift and troop capacity along with ASW, if we did it on our own I’d tend to agree but again Italy might be a very likely partner here.

Merlin is not blessed with gd lift capacity in operational configurations. Some have even suggested that with naval enhancements to green merlins and the added weight that in warm and sunny places there almost pointless. Would suspect merlin and puma replacement will be one and the same. If it’s a leonardo path I suspect they’ll push versions of aw149. If the thought is to tilt rotor which I suspect we might well be going American.

[SW1]

That was the reason I mentioned the RFAs/Amphibs being at least 100km off shore OTH and the Carrier operating further out still exactly to give her room to manoeuvre. I would also say that 100km could be the minimum distance given what sensor systems could be operational above and beyond traditional coastal radar.

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

[Jake1992]

I can’t see it being any more realistic for the UK than a RM commando taking and securing a unprotected or low protected beach.

So what are you planning for them to do once you’ve secured this beach? You simply aren’t putting a mechanised brigade or an armoured one over a beach. The marines at best have company armour manoeuvre in the form of Viking and that’s only against light opposition and there’s no replacement for cvrt unless you plan to use Ajax. There main mode of transport will be helicopter or walk and there desperately short of helicopters.

I don’t know it’s replacement is going to want to have similar lift and troop capacity along with ASW, if we did it on our own I’d tend to agree but again Italy might be a very likely partner here.

Merlin is not blessed with gd lift capacity in operational configurations. Some have even suggested that with naval enhancements to green merlins and the added weight that in warm and sunny places there almost pointless. Would suspect merlin and puma replacement will be one and the same. If it’s a leonardo path I suspect they’ll push versions of aw149. If the thought is to tilt rotor which I suspect we might well be going American.

My idea is that the commandos would be used simply to hold and secure a landing site whether that be a beach or port. Why wouldn’t the strike bridges then be delivered to this area and move on from there ?

I agree that the merlin and puma replacement will most likely be one in the same and this makes sense. I think a very closer eye is going to be kept on the US army black hawk replacement program in the coming years but still think merlin will be the bench mark that they won’t want to drop below.

[SW1]

I can’t see it being any more realistic for the UK than a RM commando taking and securing a unprotected or low protected beach.

So what are you planning for them to do once you’ve secured this beach? You simply aren’t putting a mechanised brigade or an armoured one over a beach. The marines at best have company armour manoeuvre in the form of Viking and that’s only against light opposition and there’s no replacement for cvrt unless you plan to use Ajax. There main mode of transport will be helicopter or walk and there desperately short of helicopters.

I don’t know it’s replacement is going to want to have similar lift and troop capacity along with ASW, if we did it on our own I’d tend to agree but again Italy might be a very likely partner here.

Merlin is not blessed with gd lift capacity in operational configurations. Some have even suggested that with naval enhancements to green merlins and the added weight that in warm and sunny places there almost pointless. Would suspect merlin and puma replacement will be one and the same. If it’s a leonardo path I suspect they’ll push versions of aw149. If the thought is to tilt rotor which I suspect we might well be going American.

My idea is that the commandos would be used simply to hold and secure a landing site whether that be a beach or port. Why wouldn’t the strike bridges then be delivered to this area and move on from there ?

I agree that the merlin and puma replacement will most likely be one in the same and this makes sense. I think a very closer eye is going to be kept on the US army black hawk replacement program in the coming years but still think merlin will be the bench mark that they won’t want to drop below.

To offload a strike brigade at a port will take a while hours and days, to attempt to put one over a beach much longer and that’s if we have 2 or 3 time the amount amphibious lift we have now. Your light raiding over a beach your not invading.

[Jake1992]

I can’t see it being any more realistic for the UK than a RM commando taking and securing a unprotected or low protected beach.

So what are you planning for them to do once you’ve secured this beach? You simply aren’t putting a mechanised brigade or an armoured one over a beach. The marines at best have company armour manoeuvre in the form of Viking and that’s only against light opposition and there’s no replacement for cvrt unless you plan to use Ajax. There main mode of transport will be helicopter or walk and there desperately short of helicopters.

I don’t know it’s replacement is going to want to have similar lift and troop capacity along with ASW, if we did it on our own I’d tend to agree but again Italy might be a very likely partner here.

Merlin is not blessed with gd lift capacity in operational configurations. Some have even suggested that with naval enhancements to green merlins and the added weight that in warm and sunny places there almost pointless. Would suspect merlin and puma replacement will be one and the same. If it’s a leonardo path I suspect they’ll push versions of aw149. If the thought is to tilt rotor which I suspect we might well be going American.

My idea is that the commandos would be used simply to hold and secure a landing site whether that be a beach or port. Why wouldn’t the strike bridges then be delivered to this area and move on from there ?

I agree that the merlin and puma replacement will most likely be one in the same and this makes sense. I think a very closer eye is going to be kept on the US army black hawk replacement program in the coming years but still think merlin will be the bench mark that they won’t want to drop below.

To offload a strike brigade at a port will take a while hours and days, to attempt to put one over a beach much longer and that’s if we have 2 or 3 time the amount amphibious lift we have now. Your light raiding over a beach your not invading.

If your not looking to put a serious force in theatre then is there any real need to have an amphibious force, maybe as well just have a sea lift to a safe port and accept other than the Chanel tunnel there very few places we can take our forces.

[Lord Jim]

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

There would not be any "round trips", initially. First wave landed by helicopter, second form fast armed LST. Once secured and bridgehead established the larger ships move in, being protected by a "Bubble" formed by defensive systems already landed.

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents. The platforms and technology required to make this form of warfare viable is going to get more and more expensive and if we try to retain said capability we will impact other capabilities across all three services. SO maybe we should look to procuring equipment to allow effective raiding in a peer conflicts and a broader range of capabilities against less well equipped opposition. In addition maybe we should look to the RM becoming even more specialised, or even adding an Army Battalion to the Brigade and turning £ Commando into a properly equipped Mountain Brigade if deployed in full. This would be the equivalent of the Army turning 16 AA into the equivalent of a US Army Ranger Regiment, consolidating its three Parachute Battalions under one command.

Whatever we are going to have to think further and further outside the box on how we organise, equip and utilise out military moving forward.

[SW1]

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

There would not be any "round trips", initially. First wave landed by helicopter, second form fast armed LST. Once secured and bridgehead established the larger ships move in, being protected by a "Bubble" formed by defensive systems already landed.

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents. The platforms and technology required to make this form of warfare viable is going to get more and more expensive and if we try to retain said capability we will impact other capabilities across all three services. SO maybe we should look to procuring equipment to allow effective raiding in a peer conflicts and a broader range of capabilities against less well equipped opposition. In addition maybe we should look to the RM becoming even more specialised, or even adding an Army Battalion to the Brigade and turning £ Commando into a properly equipped Mountain Brigade if deployed in full. This would be the equivalent of the Army turning 16 AA into the equivalent of a US Army Ranger Regiment, consolidating its three Parachute Battalions under one command.

Whatever we are going to have to think further and further outside the box on how we organise, equip and utilise out military moving forward.

Becoming the UKs globally deployable commando force and as such the UKs contribution to an allied operation outside of the nato area would be what I would like the direction of travel to be. That is a commando force in how it was originally created in that there was army and marine commandos.

[Jake1992]

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

There would not be any "round trips", initially. First wave landed by helicopter, second form fast armed LST. Once secured and bridgehead established the larger ships move in, being protected by a "Bubble" formed by defensive systems already landed.

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents. The platforms and technology required to make this form of warfare viable is going to get more and more expensive and if we try to retain said capability we will impact other capabilities across all three services. SO maybe we should look to procuring equipment to allow effective raiding in a peer conflicts and a broader range of capabilities against less well equipped opposition. In addition maybe we should look to the RM becoming even more specialised, or even adding an Army Battalion to the Brigade and turning £ Commando into a properly equipped Mountain Brigade if deployed in full. This would be the equivalent of the Army turning 16 AA into the equivalent of a US Army Ranger Regiment, consolidating its three Parachute Battalions under one command.

Whatever we are going to have to think further and further outside the box on how we organise, equip and utilise out military moving forward.

Becoming the UKs globally deployable commando force and as such the UKs contribution to an allied operation outside of the nato area would be what I would like the direction of travel to be. That is a commando force in how it was originally created in that there was army and marine commandos.

What sort of size would look for the RMs to become ?
What size formations would you have them operate in ?
What sort of equipment would you require them to have ?
What sort of transport would you have the RN provide ?

With current funding I do believe the force need to concentrate on increasing the capabilities of what I consider the big 3 special groups the RMs, 16AA and the Gurkhas along with the SFs. This should be done over and above standard light forces.

[SW1]

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

There would not be any "round trips", initially. First wave landed by helicopter, second form fast armed LST. Once secured and bridgehead established the larger ships move in, being protected by a "Bubble" formed by defensive systems already landed.

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents. The platforms and technology required to make this form of warfare viable is going to get more and more expensive and if we try to retain said capability we will impact other capabilities across all three services. SO maybe we should look to procuring equipment to allow effective raiding in a peer conflicts and a broader range of capabilities against less well equipped opposition. In addition maybe we should look to the RM becoming even more specialised, or even adding an Army Battalion to the Brigade and turning £ Commando into a properly equipped Mountain Brigade if deployed in full. This would be the equivalent of the Army turning 16 AA into the equivalent of a US Army Ranger Regiment, consolidating its three Parachute Battalions under one command.

Whatever we are going to have to think further and further outside the box on how we organise, equip and utilise out military moving forward.

Becoming the UKs globally deployable commando force and as such the UKs contribution to an allied operation outside of the nato area would be what I would like the direction of travel to be. That is a commando force in how it was originally created in that there was army and marine commandos.

What sort of size would look for the RMs to become ?
What size formations would you have them operate in ?
What sort of equipment would you require them to have ?
What sort of transport would you have the RN provide ?

With current funding I do believe the force need to concentrate on increasing the capabilities of what I consider the big 3 special groups the RMs, 16AA and the Gurkhas along with the SFs. This should be done over and above standard light forces.

Depends
Company size max about 250-300
Equipped to undertake the missions I mentioned a few pages back.

[Jake1992]

No a chance your operating at that distance the round trips would take forever.

There would not be any "round trips", initially. First wave landed by helicopter, second form fast armed LST. Once secured and bridgehead established the larger ships move in, being protected by a "Bubble" formed by defensive systems already landed.

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents. The platforms and technology required to make this form of warfare viable is going to get more and more expensive and if we try to retain said capability we will impact other capabilities across all three services. SO maybe we should look to procuring equipment to allow effective raiding in a peer conflicts and a broader range of capabilities against less well equipped opposition. In addition maybe we should look to the RM becoming even more specialised, or even adding an Army Battalion to the Brigade and turning £ Commando into a properly equipped Mountain Brigade if deployed in full. This would be the equivalent of the Army turning 16 AA into the equivalent of a US Army Ranger Regiment, consolidating its three Parachute Battalions under one command.

Whatever we are going to have to think further and further outside the box on how we organise, equip and utilise out military moving forward.

Becoming the UKs globally deployable commando force and as such the UKs contribution to an allied operation outside of the nato area would be what I would like the direction of travel to be. That is a commando force in how it was originally created in that there was army and marine commandos.

What sort of size would look for the RMs to become ?
What size formations would you have them operate in ?
What sort of equipment would you require them to have ?
What sort of transport would you have the RN provide ?

With current funding I do believe the force need to concentrate on increasing the capabilities of what I consider the big 3 special groups the RMs, 16AA and the Gurkhas along with the SFs. This should be done over and above standard light forces.

Depends
Company size max about 250-300
Equipped to undertake the missions I mentioned a few pages back.

I was thinking more of what an overall set up for this new RMs would be like, such as do we continue to decrease the numbers or reverse that trend ?
Do we move to heavier armoured vehicles with things like the ACV ?
Do we give them better artillery and mortars ?
Do a faster transport set like tilt rotors, faster landing craft, CB90s ?
Do we look to operate in multiple areas at once on a smaller company levels ?
Do we have part of force concentrate more on artic warfare for NATO norther flank ?

For me like I said the big 3 should be where we concentrate a lot of our efforts and increase them to say RM 10,000, 16AA 10,000, Gurkhas 5,000+ and SFs up to 3,000 strong. These would be our best contribution to allied forces being the very high skilled and trained forces. Add to this 2 x strike brigade 2 x standard medium armour and 2 x heavy armour, instead of spreading thin over everything.

[Repulse]

But we are going to have to face the fact that amphibious assaults beyond raiding may be unaffordable for the RN in the future, against peer opponents.

Maybe, but it’s not a binary decision but a position on a range where small commando raids is at one end and divisional USMC landings at the other end. I think our ambition sits at the point where the norm is enlarged RM company level raids but could be scaled up to a full RM Cdo assault.

It’s also a scale thing having a Cdo level capability that could fit in with the larger USMC or compliment EU/CANZUK operations which has value also. Overall, given our limited sized but capable Army we would still look to play alongside the big boys - so a smaller number of highly capable platforms continues to look the way to go.

My litmus test is could we land an Army Brigade in a Falklands II San Carlos style operation - not that because it specifically is likely, but a benchmark we should be capable of. It wouldn’t be over the beach, but to a landing zone with limited facilities and the ability to off load over a few days (with top cover).

[SW1]

Do we move to heavier armoured vehicles with things like the ACV ?
Do we give them better artillery and mortars ?
Do a faster transport set like tilt rotors, faster landing craft, CB90s ?
Do we look to operate in multiple areas at once on a smaller company levels ?
Do we have part of force concentrate more on artic warfare for NATO norther flank ?

Much lighter, supacat vehicles
Yes long range artillery
Possibly tiltrotor, hovercraft, cb90 or equivalent, strategic communications.
Yes I think multi operational deployments
Yes artic and mountain warfare, Jungle and riverine.

Numbers would reduce. About 1/3 of your numbers.

[Jake1992]

Do we move to heavier armoured vehicles with things like the ACV ?
Do we give them better artillery and mortars ?
Do a faster transport set like tilt rotors, faster landing craft, CB90s ?
Do we look to operate in multiple areas at once on a smaller company levels ?
Do we have part of force concentrate more on artic warfare for NATO norther flank ?

Much lighter, supacat vehicles
Yes long range artillery
Possibly tiltrotor, hovercraft, cb90 or equivalent, strategic communications.
Yes I think multi operational deployments
Yes artic and mountain warfare, Jungle and riverine.

Numbers would reduce. About 1/3 of your numbers.

I’m not sure I agree with being so lightly armoured but I can follow the thinking behind it, other than that I pretty much agree with the list above.

Numbers wise I can’t see what use a force of 3,000 odd would be when I a good chunk of that will still be needed for the security role at least half.

The aim id have with 10,000 odd would be to have a 5,000 strong commando force from that with half odd almost forward deployed to NATOs northern flank concentrating on artic warfare and the other half used for company sized raiding forces that can come together if required.

I always see our high skilled specialised forces being our best and biggest contribution to allied forces and these are the RM, 16AA, Gurkhas and the SFs. To shrink any of these in favour of what light battalions ? is just a waste and only weakens us.

[Repulse]

A modern day version of your idea seems to be what the USN want to do with the San Antonio class.
They already have decent defensive measures but are looking to add Mk41s to give them a punch as well.

Possibly, though given the lack of a first rate Escort force and we’d want these to “self-escort” and operate in high threat environments then I think it needs to be more punchy. Would forego the T31 programme in a heartbeat to get a few of these, as it would be a real capability rather than a one up from a floating flagpole.

[Jake1992]

A modern day version of your idea seems to be what the USN want to do with the San Antonio class.
They already have decent defensive measures but are looking to add Mk41s to give them a punch as well.

Possibly, though given the lack of a first rate Escort force and we’d want these to “self-escort” and operate in high threat environments then I think it needs to be more punchy. Would forego the T31 programme in a heartbeat to get a few of these, as it would be a real capability rather than a one up from a floating flagpole.

How much more punchy would they need to be ? A British version would have something like 24-32 CAMM, 2 phalanx, 2 30mm and if added 16-32 Mk41 whilst having a 4 LCU well dock, 2 LCVP / CB90 dividends, 6 merlin / 2 chinook hanger and up to 700 troops that’s a pretty big punch IMO

[Repulse]

An RFA ASS is a class of ship that does not exist anywhere, apart from your odd imagination.

In the latest “Guide to the Royal Navy 2020” publication it has a good interview with Commodore James Parkin who described “RFA Argus as an Aviation Support Ship” on page 51. Just saying...

[SW1]

To shrink any of these in favour of what light battalions

I don’t know why you think that’s what I would favour.

Numbers would be shrunk to invest in the people and equipment needed for them to undertake there enhanced role.

[Jake1992]

To shrink any of these in favour of what light battalions

I don’t know why you think that’s what I would favour.

Numbers would be shrunk to invest in the people and equipment needed for them to undertake there enhanced role.

What enhanced role they’d be undertaking the roles they do today but in smaller number with a greater emphasis on raiding.
How is reducing personal investing in personal ?

What use would a RM force be of only 3,000 strong when like I point out around half would be needed for current security roles ?

[Repulse]

How much more punchy would they need to be ? A British version would have something like 24-32 CAMM, 2 phalanx, 2 30mm and if added 16-32 Mk41 whilst having a 4 LCU well dock, 2 LCVP / CB90 dividends, 6 merlin / 2 chinook hanger and up to 700 troops that’s a pretty big punch IMO

ASW capability and NGFS - but overall not a million miles away. Would need to built to warship standards.

However, I’m talking about a Platform to operate an enhanced RM company (@200) rather than a whole Cdo, nor IMO is a well dock essential either - LCVPs on davits or an internal mission bay would be sufficient.

[Jake1992]

How much more punchy would they need to be ? A British version would have something like 24-32 CAMM, 2 phalanx, 2 30mm and if added 16-32 Mk41 whilst having a 4 LCU well dock, 2 LCVP / CB90 dividends, 6 merlin / 2 chinook hanger and up to 700 troops that’s a pretty big punch IMO

ASW capability and NGFS - but overall not a million miles away. Would need to built to warship standards.

However, I’m talking about a Platform to operate an enhanced RM company (@200) rather than a whole Cdo, nor IMO is a well dock is not essential either - LCVPs on davits or an internal mission bay would be sufficient.

Oh I completely understand what your suggesting I was just mearlly pointing out what the USN is looking to very similar and how a UK version would pack a punch.

[SW1]

To shrink any of these in favour of what light battalions

I don’t know why you think that’s what I would favour.

Numbers would be shrunk to invest in the people and equipment needed for them to undertake there enhanced role.

What enhanced role they’d be undertaking the roles they do today but in smaller number with a greater emphasis on raiding.
How is reducing personal investing in personal ?

What use would a RM force be of only 3,000 strong when like I point out around half would be needed for current security roles ?

43 commando if that is what your referring to does not number 1500.

Because they would be becoming nato tier 2 special forces and undertaking that role requires investment in equipment and training and also paying them more for the increased skills and risk.