Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[Lord Jim]

Oh well I give up. The MoD is have a "Garage sale" of kit to try to cover the shortfall in funding. Most is kit we knew was going but three things stand out. The MoD ids selling off a large portion of its ammunition stocks now we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq, but more importantly HMS Scott and HMS Ocean are to be sold off next year, with he latter going for around £80M to the right buyer.

[shark bait]

On the subject of two LHDs, only one in my view is needed. Yes, it means we will have it only available a % of the time, but given the priority/ resources available it's enough. No more putting new ships in reserve or raiding other budgets.

One LHD creates a RN that will always have 1 fixed wing carrier, and 1 helicopter carrier available at all time. That makes it a pretty neat solution, and a more affordable one.

[Jake1992]

On the subject of two LHDs, only one in my view is needed. Yes, it means we will have it only available a % of the time, but given the priority/ resources available it's enough. No more putting new ships in reserve or raiding other budgets.

One LHD creates a RN that will always have 1 fixed wing carrier, and 1 helicopter carrier available at all time. That makes it a pretty neat solution, and a more affordable one.

The problem with only one LHD is that if it replaces both Albions then when it's in refit and the second QE takes out we lose quite a large well dock and vechile deck.

It'd be similar to forming an ARG now with ocean and 2 bay class but with no Albion, you suddenly lose two thirds of your heavy lift and transport via LCUs

[Repulse]

Bearing in mind that large scale amphibious beach assault isn't something that you enter in lightly / quickly a 90 day notice would be ok. As an alternative the RN would use a CVF / Bay combo for primary OTH Raid / HADR if the LHD not available. Balancing funds with priorities...

[shark bait]

Yep, and there are other ways to provide a similar capability to the Albion's well docks, perhaps more Bays, or a mobile landing platform, or expeditionary port.

I believe it is definitely worth building the ability to transfer vehicles between a RORO vessel and landing craft, so the RN can really push the amount of equipment they can shift without acquiring lots of specialist platforms, or securing a large port facility.

[Adam]

If a major crisis breaks out, can Bulwark be reactivated reasonably quickly to deploy both LPD's and three Bays simultaneously?

[shark bait]

Nope, Albion took 12 months to bring up to standard again. The pictures of her before the work started showed a very run down ship. They call it extended readiness, but the ship isn't ready for anything, its mothballed.

I think we now have 2 hulls that share a single set of combat systems, so that will make it extremely difficult to put both to sea at once.

[james k]

But they both had a complete set of combat systems. The only change is the removal of Goalkeeper and it's replacement with Phalanx, surely Bulwarks systems are intact?

Nope, Albion took 12 months to bring up to standard again. The pictures of her before the work started showed a very run down ship. They call it extended readiness, but the ship isn't ready for anything, its mothballed.

I think we now have 2 hulls that share a single set of combat systems, so that will make it extremely difficult to put both to sea at once.

[dmereifield]

Nope, Albion took 12 months to bring up to standard again. The pictures of her before the work started showed a very run down ship. They call it extended readiness, but the ship isn't ready for anything, its mothballed.

I think we now have 2 hulls that share a single set of combat systems, so that will make it extremely difficult to put both to sea at once.

And just one set of crew?

[Adam]

Nope, Albion took 12 months to bring up to standard again. The pictures of her before the work started showed a very run down ship. They call it extended readiness, but the ship isn't ready for anything, its mothballed.

I think we now have 2 hulls that share a single set of combat systems, so that will make it extremely difficult to put both to sea at once.

But as I understand it Bulwark was laid up in extended readiness almost the same time Albion was reactivated after her refit. Or was Bulwark's systems cannibalised to complete Albion's refit? In extremis a crew could perhaps be stood up from the reserve?

[Repulse]

Given the current state of affairs having one LPD tied up costing money to bring it back into service (£90mn for the refit) is now too costly for the RN. Its the same as running HMS Scott for 20 years or HMS Ocean for 4 years... Ditch one and keep the other and run with Argus - then replace as quickly as possible with a LHD.

[WhitestElephant]

My expectations...

Albion and Bulwark will go in the mini-review. They are expensive ships, and tying up a lot of manpower. This combined with a hefty cut to the Royal Marines should balance the RNs books.

CASD and Carrier Strike will be "ring fenced" and the RN has the NSS as a sort of "crucifix" to keep HM Treasury at bay.

CEPP wants 1 x carrier configured to Carrier Strike at very high-readiness, and 1 x carrier configured as LPH at high-readiness. Both carriers will rotate between roles, but scheduled refits will see the LPH at high-readiness "gaped" every now and then. Retaining HMS Ocean or a new build LPH to maintain a continuous LPH capability would be nice, but the manpower and money is not there.

With a reduced Royal Marines, 1 x LPH CVF and 3 x Bays will have to be enough.

Some light at the end of the tunnel will be the early 2030s, when the Bays are replaced. I expect an enlarged and enhanced Bay design, with a large hanger and a larger well-dock able to accommodate more than 1 x LCU - help make up for the loss of Albion and Bulwark and their 4 x LCUs.

Anything more than this will not be affordable.

[Lord Jim]

HMS Ocean is up for sale already with the aim of doing the deal in 2018. So one year form now we will effectively have onw Albion and the Bays as out Amphibious lift capability plus the active CV. As escorts/numbers are now the dish of the day do not loo for any additional funding going to amphibious Ops for at least a decade probably more. It is probably seen as an area the RN can put to pasture if it wants to operate the CV, proceed with CASD and increase the number of "Escorts". Rather than an announced Capability Gap, the capability is reduced to almost zero but still exists which can be spun in response to awkward questions. A new LHD, also replace the Albions will probably have to wait until CASD is in service.

[ArmChairCivvy]

has the NSS as a sort of "crucifix" to keep HM Treasury at bay

- a good one, that

1 x LPH CVF and 3 x Bays will have to be enough.

- that's 4 Companies, two of them with Armour (v light) Support Group mobility, and a couple of Light Guns?

[Repulse]

Playing the long game will be important. Keeping one LPD allows the argument that it needs to be replaced (by a LHD). It is a fine balance as it may cost a Bay to do this (and I'm torn between the two), though atleast it keeps Argus.

My first choice remains dumping both LPDs and Argus, and keeping Ocean, but that now seems a very distant chance.

[R686]

Playing the long game will be important. Keeping one LPD allows the argument that it needs to be replaced (by a LHD). It is a fine balance as it may cost a Bay to do this (and I'm torn between the two), though atleast it keeps Argus.

My first choice remains dumping both LPDs and Argus, and keeping Ocean, but that now seems a very distant chance.

If they had hangers they'd be a good fit for NZ if the crew can be reduced, can't really think who would be in the market for them Indonesia perhaps?

[RetroSicotte]

If you cut one Albion now, all you'll get is two LPDs retired and one LPD as a replacement.

That's falling right into the trap that people always fall into. Retire something early, and whatever's left is all that will be replaced so they can claim it's 1 for 1.

[james k]

If you dumped the LPD's in favour of one single LPH how are you going to lad the Royal Marines? You cannot do it by Helicopter alone and there are a vast array of operations where landing by sea is preferable to an air lift.

Playing the long game will be important. Keeping one LPD allows the argument that it needs to be replaced (by a LHD). It is a fine balance as it may cost a Bay to do this (and I'm torn between the two), though atleast it keeps Argus.

My first choice remains dumping both LPDs and Argus, and keeping Ocean, but that now seems a very distant chance.

[shark bait]

there are a vast array of operations where landing by sea is preferable to an air lift.

Such as?

The last amphibious operation saw the Marines go vertical, and that sort of environment is typical of much of the worlds populated coast line, cluttered.

Shifting men vertically for the assault is not the problem, it is the logistics needed to sustain a landing force that becomes expensive. The LPD's could go in favor of an LPH, which then requires additional logistic solutions to sustain the force. Perhaps that could come in the form of a more amphibious focused SSS, or something like the US Marines Mobile Landing Platform.

[Gabriele]

The whole point of amphibious forces is that they can insert with much heavier components than parachute / airlanding infantry.

If you take away that ability, you take away the amphibious force, period. No amount of spinning Al Faw is ever going to change that.

[shark bait]

Never suggested taking that away, just changing how it is delivered.

That's something that will need to be looked at, especially as the Royal Marines are slowly being dissembled for the strike brigades to stood up in their place. The Royal Marines have to change.

[Gabriele]

That's something that will need to be looked at, especially as the Royal Marines are slowly being dissembled for the strike brigades to stood up in their place. The Royal Marines have to change.

That is because the UK is self-destroying its military capability with decisions that made 0 practical sense. Behind the buzzword, the "Strike Brigade" is just the weakest mechanized infantry brigade worldwide. Look at numbers and equipment, and that is the sad truth. The second sad truth is that despite being so weak, they are going to still cost an awful amount of money.

[abc123]

The second sad truth is that despite being so weak, they are going to still cost an awful amount of money.

As allmost 90% of other British military capabilities...

[james k]

Well, and I'm only speaking from personal experience and memory here so I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge presumably gained because you read something somewhere ; any reconnaissance or raid conducted by sea is likely to attract less attention than one landed helicopter. Any operation where the enemy has significant air defence capability ashore will limit the effectiveness of an air assault (the enemy needs few AD weapons to cover likely DZ's/LZ's than it would to cover an entire coastline) . Any operation where it is desirable to maintain a mobile centre for operations along an enemy coastline, for example using an LCVP or LCU to lay up and act as a mobile base from which to mount further operations. Every large scale operation for which the size and scale of the landing force exceeds the troop, and heavy equipment, carrying capability of the limited number of helicopters available to the force commander.

Furthermore there is opportunity for light amphibious forces to exploit rivers and inland waterways to move inland from the coast, much as the Vikings did centuries ago. This causes the enemy commander not just to commit troops to guard coastal areas but all those inland areas that can be reached from the sea. Air Assault and Airborne Forces cannot do all of these things.

You know it's just me passing an idea around but I'm fairly sure the Commander UK Amphibious Forces and his Royal marines Staff do, actually, know their business. Least ways in the many years I spent attached to the Royal Marines they always seemed to know what they were doing. But perhaps you know more than them?

there are a vast array of operations where landing by sea is preferable to an air lift.

Such as?

The last amphibious operation saw the Marines go vertical, and that sort of environment is typical of much of the worlds populated coast line, cluttered.

Shifting men vertically for the assault is not the problem, it is the logistics needed to sustain a landing force that becomes expensive. The LPD's could go in favor of an LPH, which then requires additional logistic solutions to sustain the force. Perhaps that could come in the form of a more amphibious focused SSS, or something like the US Marines Mobile Landing Platform.

[james k]

More than that amphibious forces are less restricted than airborne forces in their choice of landing zones. They have the ability to maintain station over the horizon and land almost anywhere along the coastline, thus denying the enemy a chance of predicting where our forces will land. Amphibious assets can be used, not only to carry heavy equipment, but also play a role in subsequent riverine operations.

The whole point of amphibious forces is that they can insert with much heavier components than parachute / airlanding infantry.

If you take away that ability, you take away the amphibious force, period. No amount of spinning Al Faw is ever going to change that.