UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1462
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 06 Feb 2019, 17:17

.... and, of course, there is the point that, as soon as you remove the crew, you no longer have to operate within the limits of human physiology, so you can operate in conditions that would be unacceptable to a human crew.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3486
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 06 Feb 2019, 19:19

SW1 wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:
shark bait wrote:It's not too hard to imagine a small fleet of those operating out of Faslane providing broad area surveillance across the North Atlantic.
Maybe, but if so they will need to be a lot bigger than 40m.

Poiuytrewq wrote:
shark bait wrote:Why would they ?
Are you proposing to tow a VDS/TAS and in what sea state do you intend to them to operate in?


There plenty of videos showing the Severn All weather lifeboat deploying it storm force 11 and hauling big boats in big seas and she’s only 17m.


Mr RAF man, the RN's VDS are towed on a cable several miles long at significant speeds. That's totally beyond any lifeboat ever built.

User avatar
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 1450
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Poiuytrewq » 06 Feb 2019, 20:29

SW1 wrote:There plenty of videos showing the Severn All weather lifeboat deploying it storm force 11 and hauling big boats in big seas and she’s only 17m.
I know the Severn Class very well thanks.

Here's one from my personal collection.

This was 100mph+ Hurricane Force winds and 11m to 12m waves.
image.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SW1
Member
Posts: 669
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby SW1 » 06 Feb 2019, 20:49

Poiuytrewq wrote:
SW1 wrote:There plenty of videos showing the Severn All weather lifeboat deploying it storm force 11 and hauling big boats in big seas and she’s only 17m.
I know the Severn Class very well thanks.

Here's one from my personal collection.

This was 100mph+ Hurricane Force winds and 11m to 12m waves.
image.jpg


Excellent picture shows its capability well

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Feb 2019, 21:12

Similar (but more operational):“Barracuda 2016 S.A.R. Promo compilation” from Safehaven Marine on Vimeo.

The video is available at


The self righting test is quite impressive.

Of course in escort (rather than littoral) context the trick is how to get the craft into (and out of) water.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2980
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Feb 2019, 04:20

SW1 wrote:There plenty of videos showing the Severn All weather lifeboat deploying it storm force 11 and hauling big boats in big seas and she’s only 17m.
Ron5 wrote:...the RN's VDS are towed on a cable several miles long at significant speeds. That's totally beyond any lifeboat ever built.
Poiuytrewq wrote:...This was 100mph+ Hurricane Force winds and 11m to 12m waves.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Similar (but more operational):“Barracuda 2016 S.A.R. Promo compilation” from Safehaven Marine on Vimeo...Of course in escort (rather than littoral) context the trick is how to get the craft into (and out of) water.
1: For a 11-12m drone, "how to get the craft into (and out of) water" is a big issue, while for a 40+m self deploying drones, it doesn't matter.


2: And, an independent point is, how to deploy and stabilizes the VDS/TASS, or how the hull-sonar works. This is surely not easy, much difficult than building an "unsinkable boat" (which is relatively easy, I think).

- stabilize: For example, CAPTAS4 series has an active-moving arm to counter the ship movement, to stabilize the VDS part. Complicated. If the system is as simple as CAPTAS-1, or Altas ACTAS (they are testing it using ARCIM drones, I understand), they do not need stabilization?

- deploy: I guess a system as complex as CAPTAS-4 is not good for unmanned operation. Then, can a CAPTAS-1 level system be deployed from drones without any crew? How large will be the "loss rate" in operation? Or, shall we forget about the VDS fish, and concentrate on TASS array ? TASS does have active array included, but as almost all high-end systems has VDS fish, "only TASS" apparently has some limitation. Is this acceptable for ASW drones?

- Hull sonar option: If it is a hull sonar, as US option is thinking of, it is much more robust and reliable (very important). But, is a hull sonar good enough for ASW in these days? Or, what kind of tasks we expect to these drones?

Because ASW is a "system", not a one-vs-one "duel", we must start from defining the tasks for these drones. A long way to go.

But, surely it is worth doing.


3: How to procure?

As I think the system will be more and more hi-end and expensive with maturing tactics, RN will be purchasing these future ASW drones as a replacement for Merlin ASW helo or/and an escort, not addition to. But, if it is "replacement", what can RN cut? T26 cannot be reduced, because the shipyard needs to "continue" until T45 replacement. So, they will replace a part of Merlin fleet, I think. (I'm afraid all T31 will come before any of these drones will be procured).

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1462
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 07 Feb 2019, 07:33

I would definitely see smaller ASW drones becoming the "slow, persistent" partner to the "fast, non-persistent" Merlin (and probably at a fraction of the cost). More than likely using equipment derived from dipping sonar or sonobuoys (which they could also dispense). They are, however, more likely to be deployed inshore than in blue-water operations. A larger, say 40m craft, will be quite expensive, yes, but it will not need to be built to full naval standards if there are no humans aboard, and could well include heave-compensation for the towed array etc. More than likely we could build them for a fraction of the price of an ASW frigate and probably still for less than the cost of a Merlin (excluding development costs, of course).
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5704
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby shark bait » 07 Feb 2019, 08:00

Poiuytrewq wrote:what sea state do you intend to them to operate in?

Others have already made my point for me, builders in the UK know how to produce small boats that can operate in bad conditions. Remove the crew its make the task a little easier.

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Or, shall we forget about the VDS fish, and concentrate on TASS array ?

That is a reasonable place to start. The first generation needs to be simple, so it makes sense to delete the complexity of an independently steerable fish. Perhaps a comprise is equipping the drone with an active dipping sonar?
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Feb 2019, 08:04

Caribbean wrote:I would definitely see smaller ASW drones becoming the "slow, persistent" partner to the "fast, non-persistent" Merlin (and probably at a fraction of the cost). More than likely using equipment derived from dipping sonar or sonobuoys (which they could also dispense). They are, however, more likely to be deployed inshore than in blue-water operations


Me, too. But I disagree about the last sentence. Here is why: https://www.liquid-robotics.com/wave-gl ... -it-works/

Someone else seems to think on the same lines (company website announcement in 2017):
“I’m delighted to be able to support Liquid Robotics,” said Sir George Zambellas. “This responsibility will hit the sweet spot for me, combining deceptively advanced technology with extraordinary development potential, in the challenging underwater domain but with access to land, air and space, in a product range with global reach and global relevance – run by a small committed team.”

A champion of technological innovation, and a pioneer of unmanned systems in maritime operations, Sir George has led the exploitation of autonomous systems for naval operations. As the First Sea Lord, he was the force behind Unmanned Warrior 2016, the first multi-national exercise of a real-life, large-scale interoperability of unmanned and autonomous systems. Lauded as ground breaking, it was during this exercise where Boeing and Liquid Robotics demonstrated the first time that a network of persistent USVs were able to detect, track and report a live submarine in a naval demonstration.

“We are honored to be welcoming Sir George Zambellas to our Strategic Advisory Board,”["]

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Feb 2019, 08:09

shark bait wrote: Perhaps a compr[om]ise is equipping the drone with an active dipping sonar?


On the money :thumbup:

Endurance: Up to 1 year (may vary based on operating conditions and location)
Operating Water Depth: > 15m
Tow Capability: Up to 500kg mass
Communications: Satellite, Cell, Wi-Fi
- so in near proximity to mother ship, no satcom needed
- but can be left alone (an adhoc SOSYS can be set up at the speed that the mothership steams; or have two, and start from the opposite ends :D )

NickC
Member
Posts: 479
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 07 Feb 2019, 09:32

Russian fitting the 5P-42 Filin/Eagle Owl visual-optical interference kit by firing flash/strobe beams designed to counter laser range finders, NVGs, and ATGM guidance systems, allegedly able to suppress military electronics that operate in the optical spectrum, including infrared laser rangefinders, night-vision goggles, and anti-tank missile launchers at ranges of up to five kilometers (3.1 miles). Installed on Admiral Gorshkov and Admiral Kasatonov, two Filin each

A puzzle as seem of limited use except for when operating very close inshore, if able to counter AShM infra red seekers eg NSM, as an alternative soft kill to flares would make sense?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SW1
Member
Posts: 669
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby SW1 » 07 Feb 2019, 10:24

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
SW1 wrote:There plenty of videos showing the Severn All weather lifeboat deploying it storm force 11 and hauling big boats in big seas and she’s only 17m.
Ron5 wrote:...the RN's VDS are towed on a cable several miles long at significant speeds. That's totally beyond any lifeboat ever built.
Poiuytrewq wrote:...This was 100mph+ Hurricane Force winds and 11m to 12m waves.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Similar (but more operational):“Barracuda 2016 S.A.R. Promo compilation” from Safehaven Marine on Vimeo...Of course in escort (rather than littoral) context the trick is how to get the craft into (and out of) water.
1: For a 11-12m drone, "how to get the craft into (and out of) water" is a big issue, while for a 40+m self deploying drones, it doesn't matter.


2: And, an independent point is, how to deploy and stabilizes the VDS/TASS, or how the hull-sonar works. This is surely not easy, much difficult than building an "unsinkable boat" (which is relatively easy, I think).

- stabilize: For example, CAPTAS4 series has an active-moving arm to counter the ship movement, to stabilize the VDS part. Complicated. If the system is as simple as CAPTAS-1, or Altas ACTAS (they are testing it using ARCIM drones, I understand), they do not need stabilization?

- deploy: I guess a system as complex as CAPTAS-4 is not good for unmanned operation. Then, can a CAPTAS-1 level system be deployed from drones without any crew? How large will be the "loss rate" in operation? Or, shall we forget about the VDS fish, and concentrate on TASS array ? TASS does have active array included, but as almost all high-end systems has VDS fish, "only TASS" apparently has some limitation. Is this acceptable for ASW drones?

- Hull sonar option: If it is a hull sonar, as US option is thinking of, it is much more robust and reliable (very important). But, is a hull sonar good enough for ASW in these days? Or, what kind of tasks we expect to these drones?

Because ASW is a "system", not a one-vs-one "duel", we must start from defining the tasks for these drones. A long way to go.

But, surely it is worth doing.


3: How to procure?

As I think the system will be more and more hi-end and expensive with maturing tactics, RN will be purchasing these future ASW drones as a replacement for Merlin ASW helo or/and an escort, not addition to. But, if it is "replacement", what can RN cut? T26 cannot be reduced, because the shipyard needs to "continue" until T45 replacement. So, they will replace a part of Merlin fleet, I think. (I'm afraid all T31 will come before any of these drones will be procured).


I would agree. I would add that like in other spheres of unmanned operation its not that you are trying to recreate what is done by large manned systems in the same way but to provide sensors that when operated together contribute a picture similar to a large complex unit. It will just be done in a different way.

You are perhaps initially looking to replace the sensor on a helicopter or have these operated as a field of multiple unmanned sonar bouys but ones that can operate far longer and with increased power. You can cut down the number of high end assets you need there all the time.

As for deployment and recovery if not from a shore then yes getting them on and off ships at sea. Maybe the easiest maybe out of a dock at the end of a bigger ship......

Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 1136
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 07 Feb 2019, 12:13

Poiuytrewq wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:6 x type 45s = core crew 195
10 x type 26s all full fat ASW = 130 core crew room 210
10 x Venari 95 Multi- mission ships = 50 core crew + room for 50 extra off board systems crew
10 x low level PSV = core crew 30 per + room for 50 extra off board systems crew
Interesting balance.

How do you see the proposed PSV's slotting in?


So I have been thinking about this and how this could work. We all know about T45 and T26 and what they do , will , could bring to the fleet but it is the other 2 ships and how they would look a what they could bring to fleet. So this is what I have come up with

Ship 1 ) 10 x Venari - 100 Multi-mission ship - cost 150 million per ship

100 to 105 meters long x 15 meters beam
Core crew 50 + room for 50 more ( off board system teams )
top speed 20 knots
range 6000 mn @ 12 knots
Scanter 4100 2D radar
BAE - CMS
Wildcat capable Hangar & flight deck
1 x 57mm , 2 x 30 mm , FFBNW Phalanx / SeaRam unit

Off board systems
Unmanned MCM
Unmanned Littoral ASW
hydrogarphic
RM raiding craft
Phalanx/ SeaRam
UAVs
Wildcat
HDRA kits

Main Role) Patrol & Littoral ASW + MCM , ASW , Hydrographic support to the Amphib group aim to 4 ships at sea 365 days of the year

Ship 2 ) 10 x PSV 90 Multi- mission ship - cost 50 million

90 meters long x 18 meters Beam
core crew 30 - 45 crew per ship on 1.5 system + room for 50 more
top speed 14 knots
range 6000 mn
scanter 4100 radar
BAE- CMS
UAV capable hangar & flight deck
2 x 30mm , 4 x HMG

Off board systems
Unmanned MCM
Hydrographic
unmanned ASW
UAVs
HDRA kits

Main role - support of Mine clearance - hydrographic & large unmanned ASW ship operations + HDRA and training of unmanned MCM - ASW - Hyrographic teams

Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 1136
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 08 Feb 2019, 06:50

Just as a on going comment to how the Wave class tankers could help keep up a UK presents in the Asian-Pacific at a time of low escort numbers Canada is sending MV Asterix on a year long deployment to the region

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5704
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby shark bait » 08 Feb 2019, 08:24

That is by far the simplest way to increase cooperation in the region. If the UK wants to establish a permanent Naval presence in the region again, putting a tanker at the existing fuel depot in Singapore is a low cost, low key start from which to build on.
@LandSharkUK

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 08 Feb 2019, 11:24

shark bait wrote:That is by far the simplest way to increase cooperation in the region. If the UK wants to establish a permanent Naval presence in the region again, putting a tanker at the existing fuel depot in Singapore is a low cost, low key start from which to build on.


Is that of any value to allies in the region?

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 11:46

dmereifield wrote:
shark bait wrote:That is by far the simplest way to increase cooperation in the region. If the UK wants to establish a permanent Naval presence in the region again, putting a tanker at the existing fuel depot in Singapore is a low cost, low key start from which to build on.


Is that of any value to allies in the region?

The RSN is making their ships bigger, to be able to operate further out. In this exercise
they did well, 5000nm away, but without notice I think they would be reeling as they don't have the support assets (yet).

For them forward defence is even more of a reality (and necessity) than for us. At the same time they are right on the Straits, connecting Asia and Europe
- so whatever happens in the SCS
- the same can be mirrored in the Straits

Guess what? Everyone loses... so it won't :!: happen
- only we can fathom these lose-lose games, because we manage our internal politics with feelings, not the brain. And worse: allow that to spill over to external relations

Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 1136
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 08 Feb 2019, 11:57

Naval tanker support is like air tankers there is not enough of them so yes a Wave class would be a big asset in a region as big as the Pacific

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 13:58

Tempest414 wrote:Naval tanker support is like air tankers there is not enough of them


Ye, the modus operandi has changed in the region.

The Formidable diesels were changed from the French config (= global intel/ surveillance mission) to medium speed diesels, for forays out and back in to local bases. That cost the ships a third of their range, for a few knots of top speed

Now an 'un-named' navy in the region has gone Blue Water, and guess what: whoever wants to be effective in countering the threat - real or perceived - will have to do the same.
- hence a need that did not exist has recently emerged

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 2924
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Feb 2019, 19:13

The country that owns that navy has been being the long game for quite a while now. Both with soft and hard power. How many nations in the region have accepted financial aid in one form or another and are basically in debt to said nation or have considerable parts of their infrastructure and/or industry owned again by said nation. This together with their massive naval expansion, building of fortified island bastions and the unwillingness of some nations to still not recognise that there is threat may mean that the "Un-named nation", may already have too much of a head start to be effectively countered in the future. The nations that are capable of matching those of this nations are spread over large distances and co-ordination of such forces as part of an alliance will be difficult. The methodical approach of the "Un-named nation", means it is difficult to oppose them either politically or otherwise, all the time thing tilt more and more in their favour. To maintain some sort of balance the USN is going to have to deploy more and more of its assets to the region which is going to have a knock on effect on what is available elsewhere. For NATO and the RN this is going to mean the assets of the other members are going to have to be allocated to the European theatre to cover the hole left by the absence of the USN.

User avatar
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 1450
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Poiuytrewq » 08 Feb 2019, 19:24

Lord Jim wrote:This together with their massive naval expansion, building of fortified island bastions and the unwillingness of some nations to still not recognise that there is threat may mean that the "Un-named nation", may already have too much of a head start to be effectively countered in the future.
I would respectively disagree with this analysis.

The answer is simple. Stop buying what they sell and the problem disappears virtually overnight.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 2924
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Feb 2019, 19:37

We are too reliant on what they make and sell to do that, and if they pull their financial investments and call in their debts we and many other nations are screwed.

User avatar
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 1450
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Poiuytrewq » 08 Feb 2019, 19:52

Lord Jim wrote:We are too reliant on what they make and sell to do that, and if they pull their financial investments and call in their debts we and many other nations are screwed.
Whats the alternative?

A full on naval conflict in the South China Sea? What would that cost?

The solution will be economic not militaristic in my opinion. Big militaries cost a lot to run and if the nations GDP can't withstand it, then the military will shrink and horizons will be lowered.

Trump appears to be prodding in this area at present, and with some success.

That doesn't mean hiding behind economic sanctions, but it does mean hitting were it really hurts. Long before the shooting starts.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 2924
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Feb 2019, 20:07

That is what I meant by them using soft power as part of their long game. Yes Trumps actions have hurt them a bit but them China as not used its financial weapons yet and as long as Trump get a better deal for the USA, all sins will be forgiven.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 20:23

Poiuytrewq wrote: does mean hitting were it really hurts. Long before the shooting starts.

Well, yes, Trump is trying to redress the balance and the call for fair game is, err, fair (It was the Americans who handled the letting of China into WTO and the EU delegated full negotiating powers!)

Anyway, Pearl Harbour "had to happen" as IJN was months away from not being able to complete the return leg (embargo) and in late 1939 Hitler's Germany was a year away from bankruptcy... so they decided to grab "some assets".

All I am saying is that deterrence needs to be kept in place (in this case navies are all important) and other methods "of warfare" should be kept only warm (not hot).
- and as said before, the Pivot to Pacific has not stopped, just the name has been "banned"


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PHamm and 10 guests