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Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Halidon
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Halidon » 08 Nov 2018, 04:42

Poiuytrewq wrote:Damien unveil the new Omega Class Frigate.
image.jpg
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... igate.html

At 6000t this isn't really a T31 competitor, it appears to be aimed more at the FTI market or even up onto FREMM territory.

Omega frigate / FFI early specifications:
    Length: 144 meters
    Breadth: 18.8 meters
    Displacement: 6100 tons
    Max. speed: 29 knots
    Range: 5,000 nautical miles @ 18 knots
    Endurance: 30 days at sea
    Stabilisation: Rudder roll (similar to LCF)
    Crew: 122 sailors (accommodations for up to 160)
    Storage space for 3x 12 meters RHIBs
    Hangar space for 2x medium lift helicopters and/or UAV.
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg

The Omega frigate is fitted with,
    -127mm main gun by leonardo
    -76mm secondary gun by Leonardo on top of the helicopter hangar
    -Rheinmetall Millenium CIWS
    -2x Leonardo Hitrole remote weapon stations
    -8x Kongsberg NSM anti-ship missiles
    -4x Rheinmetall MASS decoy launchers
    -Thales Kingklip hull mounted sonar
    -Captas-4 variable depth sonar
    -24x VLS cells

It will be very interesting to see what price point this Frigate is being pitched at.

Lord, she's pretty. Hope the BeNe frigates stay this stylish when they hit the water.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2018, 07:38

Poiuytrewq wrote:aimed more at the FTI market or even up onto FREMM territory.
Someone here put it that the FTIs will be more expensive than FREMMs
- is that true? Or just the difference that a longer production run (in several versions ;) ) makes

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 Nov 2018, 10:25

- FTI unit cost is ~20% cheaper than FREMM unit cost.
- 5 FTI cost including design and initial costs exceeds the 5 FREMM unit-cost only.
Very simple logic, I think.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 Nov 2018, 10:30

Aethulwulf wrote:It is a SIGMA 10514 PKR light frigate for Indonesian navy. See
https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/sigma-frigate-and-corvette/sigma-frigate-10514
And, Romanian Navy is reported to buying 4 of them with 1.6B Euro. Not much different from 1.25B GBP for T31e.

Sigma 10514 is smaller than Leander,
has very similar propulsion chain,
very similar armaments,
lacks mission bay,
has hull-sonar and torpedo and SSM by default,
and cost similar.

If you call Sigma 10514 a light frigate, Leander is a light frigate. If you call Sigma 10514 a corvette, Leander is also a corvette, at least in its cost, armament and propulsion chain. I think it is a good template.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 08 Nov 2018, 13:00

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:It is a SIGMA 10514 PKR light frigate for Indonesian navy. See
https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/sigma-frigate-and-corvette/sigma-frigate-10514
And, Romanian Navy is reported to buying 4 of them with 1.6B Euro. Not much different from 1.25B GBP for T31e.

Sigma 10514 is smaller than Leander,
has very similar propulsion chain,
very similar armaments,
lacks mission bay,
has hull-sonar and torpedo and SSM by default,
and cost similar.

If you call Sigma 10514 a light frigate, Leander is a light frigate. If you call Sigma 10514 a corvette, Leander is also a corvette, at least in its cost, armament and propulsion chain. I think it is a good template.


Disagree, a quick look at the specs to me the shows the Leander as an OPV and the Damen 10514LRP a light frigate.

My understanding of specs below and though Leander ~1,000t larger ship with more range and endurance than the 10514, 10524 is faster with a more powerful (motors nearly two times the power of the Leander motors) and sophisticated propulsion system and comes with radars/HMS plus firepower, Harpoons/SeaRAM/LWTs

The Damen Sigma 10514LRP for Mexico, 107 m x 14 m; 2,600t; 28 knots; 5,000nm @ 14 knots (max. 15 knots on its electric motors); Endurance 20 days; Crew 122; $355M/~£275M equipped with main gun Mk 110 57mm; Harpoons; SeaRAM; 2 x 3 LWTs: 12.7mm RWS - SMART 2 + FCR STIR 1.2 radars and HMS Kingklip plus FD & hanger for 6.5T helicopter, 2 x RHIB & RAS
COmbined Diesel Or Electric (Hybrid Electric)
Diesel engines 2 x 10,000 kW
Electric motors 2 x 1325 kW
Diesel Generator sets 6 x 735 kW (CAT C-32A) = 4,410 kW (allows the big DE's to be shut down and use the DG's to power ship with EM's)
Emergency gen. set 1 x 180 kW
Gearbox 2 x double input input/single output
Propellers 2 x CPP diameter 3.65 m

Leander 117 m x 14.6 m, 3,677t, 25 knots; 8,100nm @ 12 knots (max on its electric motors); Endurance 35 days; Accommodation 137; £250M; Artisan S-band radar; main gun Mk 110 57mm?; FD & hanger for Wildcat; Sea Ceptor; RHIB; RAS: No AShM - No LWTs - No HMS (FFBMW)
COmbined Diesel Or Electric (Hybrid Electric)
Diesel engines 2 x 9,100 kW
Electric motors 2 x 700 kW
Diesel Generators - ?
Emergency gen set - ?
Gearbox x 2 (port Z type, stbd U type)
Propellers 2 x CPP

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 Nov 2018, 14:24

NickC wrote:Disagree, a quick look at the specs to me the shows the Leander as an OPV and the Damen 10514LRP a light frigate.

My understanding of specs below and though Leander ~1,000t larger ship with more range and endurance than the 10514, 10524 is faster with a more powerful (motors nearly two times the power of the Leander motors) and sophisticated propulsion system and comes with radars/HMS plus firepower, Harpoons/SeaRAM/LWTs

The Damen Sigma 10514LRP for Mexico, 107 m x 14 m; 2,600t; 28 knots; 5,000nm @ 14 knots (max. 15 knots on its electric motors); Endurance 20 days; Crew 122; $355M/~£275M equipped with main gun Mk 110 57mm; Harpoons; SeaRAM; 2 x 3 LWTs: 12.7mm RWS - SMART 2 + FCR STIR 1.2 radars and HMS Kingklip plus FD & hanger for 6.5T helicopter, 2 x RHIB & RAS
COmbined Diesel Or Electric (Hybrid Electric)
Diesel engines 2 x 10,000 kW
Electric motors 2 x 1325 kW
Diesel Generator sets 6 x 735 kW (CAT C-32A) = 4,410 kW (allows the big DE's to be shut down and use the DG's to power ship with EM's)
Emergency gen. set 1 x 180 kW
Gearbox 2 x double input input/single output
Propellers 2 x CPP diameter 3.65 m

Leander 117 m x 14.6 m, 3,677t, 25 knots; 8,100nm @ 12 knots (max on its electric motors); Endurance 35 days; Accommodation 137; £250M; Artisan S-band radar; main gun Mk 110 57mm?; FD & hanger for Wildcat; Sea Ceptor; RHIB; RAS: No AShM - No LWTs - No HMS (FFBMW)
COmbined Diesel Or Electric (Hybrid Electric)
Diesel engines 2 x 9,100 kW
Electric motors 2 x 700 kW
Diesel Generators - ?
Emergency gen set - ?
Gearbox x 2 (port Z type, stbd U type)
Propellers 2 x CPP
Good point!

1: Looking at your spec-sheet, it is clear Leander is paying a lot for larger hull (2600t vs 3700t), and longer endurance (20days vs 35 days). Leander also has a mission bay (which I do not understand why it is needed). Even though cost comparison between different country is not easy and even non-healthy, I think their costs are "similar".

I think even though "steel is cheap and air is free", "the escort hull is not cheap" = it is not the steel which is defining the hull cost. This is may be because of damage control standard, shock, flooding, fire, NBC etc. Also, endurance is known to be expensive. Because Leander is 40% larger in size and 75% longer in endurance compared to Sigma 10514, it eats up many of the armaments cost.

Also, Sigma 10514 lack future growth margins significantly, compared to Leander.


2: I do not think Sigma10514 is a light frigate. Yes it is a light frigate in 1990-2000 standard. But, in 2020 standard, it is just a large corvette. If you compare Khareef vs Sigma 10514, they are pretty much the same. (armament difference simply reflects the cost difference, Khareef is significantly cheaper).

Appendix: Minor issue. The two 9,100 kW diesel on Leander can be easily upgraded to 10,000kW, from MTU 20V_8000_M91 to MTU 20V_8000_M91B.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2018, 15:42

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Leander is paying a lot for larger hull (2600t vs 3700t), and longer endurance (20days vs 35 days). Leander also has a mission bay (which I do not understand why it is needed).


Going into the T31 'country' I guess the RFI said things about those basic properties

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 08 Nov 2018, 17:52

Flawed comparison with errors in spec leading to an empty conclusion.

In fact, the 40% cheaper Leander delivers a global capable warship with greatly superior self-defence capabilities that can operate a larger helo in a wider range of sea states when compared with the Mexican ship.

Whether anyone wants to call this an OPV, a light frigate, a patrol frigate or a jumblywumbly, means SFA.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 Nov 2018, 22:38

Ron5 wrote:Flawed comparison with errors in spec leading to an empty conclusion.

In fact, the 40% cheaper Leander delivers a global capable warship with greatly superior self-defence capabilities that can operate a larger helo in a wider range of sea states when compared with the Mexican ship.

Whether anyone wants to call this an OPV, a light frigate, a patrol frigate or a jumblywumbly, means SFA.
Global capable, larger helo and good seakeeping is I agree for sure.

Superior self defense, comes from where? I see no such info. 12 SeaMICA in Indonesian ship is the same to 12 CAMM, and in Mexico it is ESSM and RAM. If it is ESSM2, even better than 12 CAMM. But, we do not know Indonesia and Mexical deal price, while Romanian version has no info in armaments.

40% cheaper is also I do not see, but cost comparison between different country is difficult.

What we all know is, BAE 99m corvette design was always there but did not get the deal, Indonesia, Morocco, Romania, and Mexico. So clearly Sigma 10514 is superior to BAE design in several respects. Not all respects but many respects. This is also solid I think.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 08 Nov 2018, 22:40

NickC wrote:Disagree, a quick look at the specs to me the shows the Leander as an OPV and the Damen 10514LRP a light frigate.


That's odd, because I draw a completely different conclusion

Smaller, shorter range, shorter endurance, low standard hull, high density weapons fit = Corvette = Sigma
Larger, longer range, longer endurance, higher standard hull, low density weapons fit = Light/ Patrol Frigate = Leander

The Sigma is built to Lloyd’s Register of Shipping (supervision) X100 A1 SSC Mono Patrol, G6, LMC UMS standard

A quick Google brings up this OPV:
http://www.seaboats.net/strategic-marine-xidg70393.html
and, believe it or not, this (OK - it's not quite the same)
http://silveryachts.com/yacht/smeralda/technical-specifications/
Thought the latter would probably cost more than the Sigma :lol:
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Nov 2018, 22:45

Regarding the T-31e, I think we all need to take a step back and look at the platform as a whole. Referring to the RFI what are the minimum requirements of any design submitted? What is its intended role? Is it to be a disposable platform to be used as delivered for ten years and then scrapped or sold or is growth potential a factor in any design? At the moment we looking too much into the small print and micro details.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 09 Nov 2018, 09:51

donald_of_tokyo wrote:What we all know is, BAE 99m corvette design was always there but did not get the deal, Indonesia, Morocco, Romania, and Mexico. So clearly Sigma 10514 is superior to BAE design in several respects. Not all respects but many respects. This is also solid I think.


Come on we all know deals are not always won by the best ship (not to say the BAE 99m is the best ship) but by the off set and back ground deals maybe BAE have not been supported enough by HMG in foreign sales. Or BAE have not push it that hard

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 09 Nov 2018, 10:36

Tempest414 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:What we all know is, BAE 99m corvette design was always there but did not get the deal, Indonesia, Morocco, Romania, and Mexico. So clearly Sigma 10514 is superior to BAE design in several respects. Not all respects but many respects. This is also solid I think.
Come on we all know deals are not always won by the best ship (not to say the BAE 99m is the best ship) but by the off set and back ground deals maybe BAE have not been supported enough by HMG in foreign sales. Or BAE have not push it that hard
You pointed out one of merits of Damen design. I'm saying there is more.
- For example, if Damen 10514 is NOT naval standard but OPV standard, it means OPV standard is much popular in export market. Luckily in this case, there is a Khareef design, which is not naval standard, so going back to that standard will be easy for Leander.
- Endurance/range vs armaments, surely armaments are more popular in export market. Luckily, .... (the same...)
- Mission bay is not required in many export sells. Luckily, .... (the same...)

But anyway, my point is Leander has some aspect Damen10514 does not have, and pays a lot for them. In place, armaments are cut compared to heavy corvettes in the market, the cost of which is similar to those of Leander.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Nov 2018, 10:38

Tempest414 wrote:Come on we all know deals are not always won by


The ace that Sigma has, up the sleeve, is local construction. E.g. the ones built in Surabaya had 4 of the sections built there, 2 built (and tested, so the complex stuff) in the Netherlands.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 09 Nov 2018, 11:26

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... igate.html

From Xav-san's article. Worth reading.

Damen guy says, it is also for Belgium-Dutch new light frigate although the model itself is presented for Indonesian Navy. The ship is more a "Dutch T26" than "Dutch T31", in many respects. I think the only difference is the propulsion system. It is actually based on De Zeven Provincien-class frigate.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 09 Nov 2018, 11:42

Ron5 wrote:
In fact, the 40% cheaper Leander delivers a global capable warship with greatly superior self-defence capabilities that can operate a larger helo in a wider range of sea states when compared with the Mexican ship.


Now that you have revealed the BAE Leander is 40% cheaper than the Damen 10514 so that when the Brazilian Navy made the recent choice for the new Tamandere class the 4 designs to go forward with from the original 9 designs, all built in country, Leander did not make the cut, must say I'm shocked, shocked :roll:

No surprise to me that the very capable Damen 10514 did make the cut.

PS Do you have any reliable source to back up your claim that Leander is 40% cheaper than the 10514, sounds totally unrealistic.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 09 Nov 2018, 12:55

Damen 6,000t 'Omega' Frigate

FWIW its early days but if Belgium/Dutch hold their budget we see the following.

At the NATO June 7-8 meeting of NATO the Belgian and Dutch defense ministers signed two MoUs ratifying their plan to jointly procure 16 warships. The 16 warships consist of 4 frigates 12 minehunters with the frigate program to be managed by the Dutch, while Belgium will take the lead on the minehunters and are estimated to cost ~ 4B euros / £3.5B, which the two countries will share evenly. So for each country 2 frigates and 6 minehunters for 2B euros ~ £1.75B.

If you take T26 costs in the opaque world of MOD figures, the Defence Equipment 2018 Plan quotes £4,242M ~4.8 billion euros for 3 frigates and as far as can tell is an apples to apples comparison with the Belgium/Dutch budget of ~4B euros for 4 frigates and the 12 minehunters, the low budget costs we can only dream about in UK, back to my mantra the T26 is too costly and class should be terminated after the first three ships.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Poiuytrewq » 09 Nov 2018, 13:06

NickC wrote:the T26 is too costly and class should be terminated after the first three ships.
What are you proposing to replace them with?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby abc123 » 09 Nov 2018, 13:07

NickC wrote:back to my mantra the T26 is too costly and class should be terminated after the first three ships.


Ok, so if T26 at 700-800 mil. is too expensive and T31 at 250 mil. is too cheap (not capable enough), what could we get for say 500 mil. pounds? What capabilities?
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Nov 2018, 14:04

NickC wrote:for each country 2 frigates and 6 minehunters for 2B euros ~ £1.75B.

+
abc123 wrote: what could we get for say 500 mil. pounds? What capabilities?


3 frigates, though not as optimised as the T-26 for ASW... and a fully kitted out prototype of an MCM vessel, to test in various scenarios
= 3 x 500 mln +250 :o

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 09 Nov 2018, 14:12

I like Omega-class a lot. But, I do not think it as a contender against T26 = T26 is one-rank higher and of course more expensive.

T26 cost is £3.6B (not £4.2B *1) for initial 3 hulls. With 2 unit-cost equivalent design+initial cost assumed, its unit cost is 720M GBP. As I think Dutch ship building cost is in many case estimated cheaper than that of UK, "what is included" may differ. So, direct comparison is not healthy.

No matter of it, T31e is one-rank or even two-ranks lower = cheaper vessels. Good thing is that rivals of Omega-class will NOT be T31, but will be
- FTI frigate (470M GBP unit cost)
- FREMM frigate, both French (560M GBP) and Italian version (not sure)
- Spanish F100 series (not sure)
T31e ships looks like somewhere "in between", "FTI-Omega-F100" club and "Sigma10514-Gowind2500" club. Actually, more near to the latter = less rivals, possibly.

Bad thing is, people will tend to compare Omega-class and FTI to T31e, even though T31e is clearly "one-rank or even two-ranks lower" assets compared to the former two. It is not much different from comparing JMSDF 30FFM vs Asahi-class DD, or FFG7 vs Spruance class, or T22B3 vs T21, or WW2 Flower-class corvettes vs River-class Frigates. Different classes, they are.

*1: T31e is £1.5B, while the budget for hull is £1.25. I think T26 is £4.2B and £3.6B in similar manner. On the other hand, 4B Euro for M-class replacement is still just a plan. When contracted, it can be more. So, £1.25 (T31) or £3.6B (T26) shall be compared to 4B Euro. But, still, contract ingredients may well differ and direct comparison is not healthy.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 09 Nov 2018, 16:34

NickC wrote:PS Do you have any reliable source to back up your claim that Leander is 40% cheaper than the 10514, sounds totally unrealistic.


Your comment.

You claimed the Leander was 250m but that includes research,design, development & initial service and support. I subtracted those factors to derive a 200m UPC to compare with the 275m UPC you quoted for the Mexican ship. I rounded up 37.5% to become 40%.

And yes, I regard your posts as being mostly unrealistic so we do share that.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 09 Nov 2018, 16:41

donald_of_tokyo wrote:people will tend to compare Omega-class and FTI to T31e, even though T31e is clearly "one-rank or even two-ranks lower" assets compared to the former two.


Might be clear to you but not everyone else. Certainly not me. In my opinion you are putting too much weight into ships cost as a way of assessing capability.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 09 Nov 2018, 16:47

donald_of_tokyo wrote:*1: T31e is £1.5B, while the budget for hull is £1.25.


Can you please just drop this. The Type 31e program's budget is unchanged at 1.25b for 5 ships to include all elements: design, development, build, initial service, & support.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 09 Nov 2018, 17:07

NickC wrote:If you take T26 costs in the opaque world of MOD figures, the Defence Equipment 2018 Plan quotes £4,242M ~4.8 billion euros for 3 frigates and as far as can tell is an apples to apples comparison with the Belgium/Dutch budget of ~4B euros for 4 frigates and the 12 minehunters


No.

The amount in the Equipment plan is the amount of the Type 26 budget for the next 10 years. This is not a program budget for the delivery of a number of ships.

As for apples to apples: I'd be very surprised if either the Dutch of Belgium navies have a requirement for world class ASW defense of a globally deployable CV centered strike group and yes, I am aware the Dutch will be providing an escort for QE's initial deployments.

Personally speaking, given the content of your posts, I think you are a person that delights in posting and expressing negative opinions about UK capabilities, present and future. Your anti-type T26 "campaign" is just more of the same nonsense.


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