Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Repulse]

Tempest414, I completely agree with the sentiment hence why I don’t want to call them Frigates otherwise the requirement will get muddled and good plated. Equally, they are more than just an OPV, hence “Sloop”.

There are many global examples of what this type of ship could be, each unique to the respective Navy’s requirement and fleet composition.

My view is the most appropriate way to do this for the RN in terms of unit cost, build capabilities and ongoing costs is to take the River II Class design add 20m to its length for a Wildcat hangar and enlarged flat deck or mission bay amidships. Build it at Appledore in partnership with BAE.

[ArmChairCivvy]

take the River II Class design add 20m to its length for a Wildcat hangar

Now that we have light-weight UAVs, we can do this again
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/rn/frig ... ribal6.jpg
as we did with the Tribals when the helos could , with their weight, land straight on top of the lift... and then be taken 'indoors'.

Gives you an extra gun mount

[Scimitar54]

If the Gun Mount (Turret) was big enough, then the Helo’s could land ON it!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Errm yes
https://www.okieboat.com/Copyright%20im ... 75%20C.jpg

[Lord Jim]

Or we could stick a catapult or launching ramp on such a turret for an F-35 maybe!!

[SKB]

A towed floating landing/takeoff runway. A bit like a Mexeflote.

[Tempest414]

My view is the most appropriate way to do this for the RN in terms of unit cost, build capabilities and ongoing costs is to take the River II Class design add 20m to its length for a Wildcat hangar and enlarged flat deck or mission bay amidships. Build it at Appledore in partnership with BAE.

My concern with the idea of using the River B2 is that it is only 13.5 meters wide given the size of the unmanned kit it will need to load / unload for me any new MHPC will need to be 16 meters beam. Also this is a opportunity to design a new ship that we can export in the same way as the River class and Type 26

[ArmChairCivvy]

given the size of the unmanned kit it will need to load / unload for me any new MHPC will need to be 16 meters beam.

Important point, but can that be alleviated by having a whole-breadth workdeck and a capable crane?
- @xav has put his logo on top of the crane
- I wonder about the helipad... is it just for remote-controlled (smaller) helicopters

Of course when we move up from MCM to OPV sized designs, there is also more room

[Tempest414]

I would say the design above is very much limited to the 12 meter USV's of today and going forward future USV's may be larger. I would like to see us build a true multi-mission ship able to support globe operations capable of operating all unmanned USV, UUV, UAV's plus Wildcat and RM raiding craft

[ArmChairCivvy]

Wildcat and RM raiding craft

Quite like the idea as a beach recce party could be launched while the "underwater recce" is ongoing

And, yes, the exhibit I chose was just for the layout, not for the size. Those 'craddle launchers' from davit-like frames on the side are quite good for rough seas
- once in water, the craddle is 'lead by the nose' to keep it aligned with the ship

If @xav reads this, would be interesting to know what those long, rod-like things are on both sides... extras for tuna line fishing, when not otherwise busy?

[Scimitar54]

Mooring for the boats etc.

[SD67]

A silly question for the experts - if offboard systems really are becoming as autonomous, modular etc as claimed does the mother ship even need to be a naval ship?

Something like a fleet of North sea Platform Supply Vessels taken up up from trade as and when required.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Potentially you will get shot at (or a missile hit) so the graduating scale from Albions (full warships) down to Bays (less so) applies
- with Ocean it was an easier choice (Invincibles hull, all the rest 'commercial' shipping - other than for the mags) as keeping a hygienic distance (in the days gone by) was easier when you were a base for launching aviation ops (well, LCVPs are quite fast, so they can go some way, or OTH, too)

[Repulse]

The 1SL was clear that he was willing to trade warships for unmanned systems.

Sounds reasonable when it comes to MCMs and possibly larger amphibious ships, but when it comes to Destroyers, Frigates and OPVs (or Sloops as I call them ) I’m not convinced. As ArmChairCivvy says ships will get shot at and need to be able to respond, also patrolling and boarding other ships will still need people for a long while.

Where I do think there is an interesting question is around control of the Littoral Zone and future amphibious operations. This is where I believe a large fleet of small (but not v.small) 20-30m sized manned and unmanned platforms could be a game changer - like modern day MGBs used for Commando Raids, supported at distance by RFAs.

[Tempest414]

I believe a large fleet of small (but not v.small) 20-30m sized manned and unmanned platforms could be a game changer

However the BAE Pacific 950 can carry a 12'7mm gun and patrol for up to 10 days at patrol speed and up to 300 Nm this means a B2 River with 4 of these and AW Hero UAV could patrol and enforce an area the size of the bay of Biscay

[Ron5]

I believe a large fleet of small (but not v.small) 20-30m sized manned and unmanned platforms could be a game changer

However the BAE Pacific 950 can carry a 12'7mm gun and patrol for up to 10 days at patrol speed and up to 300 Nm this means a B2 River with 4 of these and AW Hero UAV could patrol and enforce an area the size of the bay of Biscay

A ribbie in the Bay of Biscay, sure.

[Tempest414]

I believe a large fleet of small (but not v.small) 20-30m sized manned and unmanned platforms could be a game changer

However the BAE Pacific 950 can carry a 12'7mm gun and patrol for up to 10 days at patrol speed and up to 300 Nm this means a B2 River with 4 of these and AW Hero UAV could patrol and enforce an area the size of the bay of Biscay

A ribbie in the Bay of Biscay, sure.

I invite you to read the part in bold again I did not say a rib in the bay of Biscay

[Ron5]

A ribbie in an ocean area the size of the Bay of Biscay, sure.

[Caribbean]

A ribbie in the Bay of Biscay, sure.

Why not? As long as it doesn't mind which way is up

[Tempest414]

A ribbie in an ocean area the size of the Bay of Biscay, sure.

Oh for fuck sake the point I was making is a B2 River with 4 Unmanned Pac 950 could patrol and enforce an littoral area the size of the bay of Biscay

[Ron5]

A ribbie in an ocean area the size of the Bay of Biscay, sure.

Oh for fuck sake the point I was making is a B2 River with 4 Unmanned Pac 950 could patrol and enforce an littoral area the size of the bay of Biscay

And my point is that it would have to be a really, really, nice day which rather diminishes their usefulness don't you agree?

[bobp]

And my point is that it would have to be a really, really, nice day which rather diminishes their usefulness don't you agree?

Yeah the Bay of Biscay can get pretty rough at times.

[Tempest414]

And my point is that it would have to be a really, really, nice day which rather diminishes their usefulness don't you agree?

No mate I would not agree at all the Pacific class rib's are used all over the world in developed sea states by the RN every day also given that the unmanned Pacific 950 has a 10 day and 300 nm for Littoral operations it will have to face more than a flat sea I would also say that if the 10 x 3 meter rib is as useless as you think then the 12 meter USV's for MCM will not fair any better and there for a lot of people are wasting there time

[Repulse]

10m-12m Ribs/USVs are fine for near/mid shore operations and short transfers / intercepts on the high seas when the weather is calm. I don’t think anyone is suggesting anything different.

However for extend operations, operating over large distances, and navigating or operating far from shore then larger USVs will be required. Not only to ensure seaworthiness and as large an operating window as possible, but also to carry the kit required.

Putting aside MCM which operates more typically in shallower waters, I think there are two roles where USVs have a real part to play. ASW, which is a role which takes time and patience, and Amphibious Assault/Littoral which is increasing operating in contested waters where today we could be excluded by the an expected level of casualties.

Sea Hunter is 40m, and I’d expect any long distance passive ASW USV to be a similar size. If the role became aggressive ASW also, then I’d expect it to grow.

For “first wave” Amphibious Assault this will be focused on neutralising A2AD systems and also landing “robots”/SFs to secure landing grounds. For securing Littoral this will be similar but also aimed at attacking enemy craft and low level air assets.

For this role, I’d see something similar to the WW2 MGB/MTB concepts - around 30-40m in length operating small/medium caliber guns / CIWS and short ranged missiles LMM/Brimestone/Starstreak. These would be backed up by UAV and manned helicopters operating from ships OTH, with air cover from the RAF and CBGs.

[Tempest414]

At this time the RN are spending money on getting a 30 meter UUV for the ASW role however a few 60 meter ASW USV's for TAPS would be great