Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
- The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
There are also other items of expense on a light frigate to make it relevant but can also be expensive , for example which type of radars , the data sharing communications that enable the ship to deploy its weapons in support ,should cec be considered later for these ships later ?
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
A graphic by Naval Analyses showing the surface combatants of European navies in 2030:
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Rule Italia, Italia rule the waves...The Armchair Soldier wrote:A graphic by Naval Analyses showing the surface combatants of European navies in 2030:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
yes I think the Italian navy is going to be the strongest go to navy in the future ,also with there new carrier/ lpd fleet this side of the pond anyway,well done italy
- shark bait
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Hardly the strongest, France and UK will still be superior, with Italy a solid third.
However when you consider their budget, they appear to get a much greater effect per pound.
The UK has double the budget. If the Italians doubled there budget there's plenty room for super carrier's and nuke boats.
However when you consider their budget, they appear to get a much greater effect per pound.
The UK has double the budget. If the Italians doubled there budget there's plenty room for super carrier's and nuke boats.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
My reading is that Italy is using defense spending to inject money into their poorly performing economy in order to provide stimulus. With EEC rules, defense spending is something of a loophole to get around deficit spending.
The UK is doing the same thing but building nuclear power stations & high speed rail links instead. With maybe airport expansion to follow. Of course, not that worried about EEC rules anymore.
The UK is doing the same thing but building nuclear power stations & high speed rail links instead. With maybe airport expansion to follow. Of course, not that worried about EEC rules anymore.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
i'm really starting to worry if the navy is going to get their type 26 frigates with all the delays and money problems i won't be surprised in the slightest if the MOD/Government opts for the cheap option and replace the type 23s with the type 31 light frigate, the more we delay the more the cost will go up
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Good point, the split of 8/5 could change very easily with Bae being the scapegoat. They wouldn't get much resistance from Adm Jones and the defense minded politicians all seem asleep at the wheel. No doubt Brexit is being used to great effect - "we need every penny for ....".
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
2 years ago they were talking about 13 type 26s i fear the type 26s could end up being a hybrid of the original type 26 and the type 31, with the UK that could well be the final outcome, we have to cut out wasting money and both the government and the MOD needs to sit down and come out with a long term strategy and stick to the strategy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a ratio of 6 T26/8 T31, then being heralded as an increase in the investment/size/capabilities of the escort fleet
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
V true, I see it playing out asRon5 wrote:Good point, the split of 8/5 could change very easily with Bae being the scapegoat. They wouldn't get much resistance from Adm Jones and the defense minded politicians all seem asleep at the wheel
-T31s coming out in a fairly quick succession
- 3 first T26s coming out in parallel
... we could end up with 5 in total, and the other three tails going into Batch 2 T31s
And, Batch 2 T26s would be of the AAW variety; which will make them later than 2036 (ISD)
Watch out for the National Shipbuilding Strategy.... coming soon, on this same channel
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
In that order?shark bait wrote:Hardly the strongest, France and UK will still be superior, with Italy a solid third.
I should imagine that the level of training and build quality are also big factors. I always hear that RN ship build and training standards are very high - are they higher than that of our European friends, or the Americans?
Much appreciate anyone who can put such statements into context
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
playing devils advocate ,all I can say is at least the Italian and French navy vessels work(availability when needed) so that would maybe not put uk in a position above Italy of france ?although I kind of get your drift
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Not necessarily in that order, it depends how the next few years go. Hopefully the T32 will maintain the credibility of the RN and keep that at the number 1 within Europe.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
There are two things keeping the Royal Navy afloat in that sense, and they do not involve the Type 23 at all. The difference is made by the SSNs, and by the RFA. The capabilities offered by the RFA do not quite have an equivalent elsewhere in European NATO.
But that is being eroded away. The loss of Diligence takes away one fair chunk of that uniqueness.
But that is being eroded away. The loss of Diligence takes away one fair chunk of that uniqueness.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.
Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
- shark bait
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
They are certainly important, our SSN's and RFA's account for around half of Europe's capabilities in those domains.
I wouldn't say our position has nothing to do with the T23 though, equipped with Merlin they become the world's premier sub hunter's, a highly valuable capability
I wouldn't say our position has nothing to do with the T23 though, equipped with Merlin they become the world's premier sub hunter's, a highly valuable capability
@LandSharkUK
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
we are over reliant on the RFA to fill capability gaps across the world and that situation needs rectifying. That means expanding the fleet in the medium to long term and that means proper long term manpower and career planning. And the dumping of many of the assumptions that have underpinned British Defence policy for the last 71 years!
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I came this across on another forum, it a correlation between the Naval capabilty of the UK and US in terms of population and GDP, makes an interesting side snippet of where the UK is. It should not be treated as a yard stick by any measure, courtesy of Swerve.
It was in responce to this article,
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10L1AD
It was in responce to this article,
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10L1AD
Welll . . . I dunno. Let's play a little game, shall we. The USA has about five times the population (& more than five times the GDP) of the UK, so let's multiply everything in the RN by five & see how they compare -
RN carriers building = 2 x 5 = 10
USN carriers = 10 (bigger)
LHD/LPH = 1 x 5 = 5 vs 12
LPD = 2 x 5 = 10 vs 9
LSD = 3 x 5 = 15 vs 12
SSN/SSGN = 7 x 5 = 35 vs 58
SSBN = 4 x 5 = 20 vs 14
Cruisers = 0 vs 22
Destroyers/frigates = 19 x 5 = 85 vs 62
LCS = 0 vs 6
MCMV = 15 x 5 = 75 vs 11
It doesn't look too bad on that basis, does it? Not quite 'disappearing', though there are areas where I'd like numbers increased.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Thirty years ago when NATO and the Warsaw pact faced off there was a real theat ,now the WARSAW PACT is no more , NATO clearly has the edge over the Russian navy .
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
How about that Pivot thingy?
A good ten years before Pearl Harbour the US changed naval strategy, from a balanced two oceans one to the Pacific focus. We are seeing a similar shift now (the 4 ABM-capable ships forward based to Rota are a welcome exception to this... how often do you see a USN carrier in the Med these days?)
Russian surface navy admittedly is mainly a coastal force (noises made about bringing battle cruisers back are likely to remain exactly that... noises), but the submarine threat is real and there is also a real new build -programme backing it.
A good ten years before Pearl Harbour the US changed naval strategy, from a balanced two oceans one to the Pacific focus. We are seeing a similar shift now (the 4 ABM-capable ships forward based to Rota are a welcome exception to this... how often do you see a USN carrier in the Med these days?)
Russian surface navy admittedly is mainly a coastal force (noises made about bringing battle cruisers back are likely to remain exactly that... noises), but the submarine threat is real and there is also a real new build -programme backing it.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
30 years ago our ships, submarines and aircraft were technologically years ahead of WARPAC i'm afraid they aren't today and Russia has greater numbersseaspear wrote:Thirty years ago when NATO and the Warsaw pact faced off there was a real theat ,now the WARSAW PACT is no more , NATO clearly has the edge over the Russian navy .
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
In every category, the US ships are larger and more capable than the UK equivalent.R686 wrote:I came this across on another forum, it a correlation between the Naval capabilty of the UK and US in terms of population and GDP, makes an interesting side snippet of where the UK is. It should not be treated as a yard stick by any measure, courtesy of Swerve.
It was in responce to this article,
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10L1AD
Welll . . . I dunno. Let's play a little game, shall we. The USA has about five times the population (& more than five times the GDP) of the UK, so let's multiply everything in the RN by five & see how they compare -
RN carriers building = 2 x 5 = 10
USN carriers = 10 (bigger)
LHD/LPH = 1 x 5 = 5 vs 12
LPD = 2 x 5 = 10 vs 9
LSD = 3 x 5 = 15 vs 12
SSN/SSGN = 7 x 5 = 35 vs 58
SSBN = 4 x 5 = 20 vs 14
Cruisers = 0 vs 22
Destroyers/frigates = 19 x 5 = 85 vs 62
LCS = 0 vs 6
MCMV = 15 x 5 = 75 vs 11
It doesn't look too bad on that basis, does it? Not quite 'disappearing', though there are areas where I'd like numbers increased.
Two exceptions: 1) Astutes, I believe, are superior 2) UK MCM.
I notice that aircraft, RFA and Marines are excluded. I assume those comparisons would be too depressing for the Brits.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
How do we compare in terms of ship availability? Are RN ships (e.g. escorts to try to keep on topic) more or less available available than US (or our European counterparts) ships?Ron5 wrote:In every category, the US ships are larger and more capable than the UK equivalent.R686 wrote:I came this across on another forum, it a correlation between the Naval capabilty of the UK and US in terms of population and GDP, makes an interesting side snippet of where the UK is. It should not be treated as a yard stick by any measure, courtesy of Swerve.
It was in responce to this article,
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10L1AD
Welll . . . I dunno. Let's play a little game, shall we. The USA has about five times the population (& more than five times the GDP) of the UK, so let's multiply everything in the RN by five & see how they compare -
RN carriers building = 2 x 5 = 10
USN carriers = 10 (bigger)
LHD/LPH = 1 x 5 = 5 vs 12
LPD = 2 x 5 = 10 vs 9
LSD = 3 x 5 = 15 vs 12
SSN/SSGN = 7 x 5 = 35 vs 58
SSBN = 4 x 5 = 20 vs 14
Cruisers = 0 vs 22
Destroyers/frigates = 19 x 5 = 85 vs 62
LCS = 0 vs 6
MCMV = 15 x 5 = 75 vs 11
It doesn't look too bad on that basis, does it? Not quite 'disappearing', though there are areas where I'd like numbers increased.
Two exceptions: 1) Astutes, I believe, are superior 2) UK MCM.
I notice that aircraft, RFA and Marines are excluded. I assume those comparisons would be too depressing for the Brits.
Likewise, as I mentioned yesterday, I always hear that RN ships are of higher built quality other navies, how much truth is in this?
Appreciate anyone's views on these points