Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[tomuk]

Truth is the RN's lessons from the Falklands around the need for decent sized helo decks and hangarage for every vessel of note was learnt in some respects (in the form of Chinook capable decks on T45 and T26, helo decks on OPV's following Castle Class experience) but simultaneously unlearnt with a number of major vessels with little aviation provision (looking at the Albion Class and Bay Class).

One mustn't forget that they came as a package with HMS Ocean and of course the Invincible carriers were still around.

But the forces have been guilty of giving equipment unique roles/capabilities to retain overall numbers.

On the bays the need for the Bays it seems worse with the need for 'temporary' hangars compared with there Dutch and Spanish cousins.

[ArmChairCivvy]

That’s a Deck Chair, not an Arm Chair!

Ahh! you did not read my intro msg (update)
- the temperature does not only refer to my garden (it is correct though) but also my little tour of the defence blogs in countries directly adjacent to Russia
... not all of them liked what I had to say. So I made a hasty exit. Why waste time with zealots and/or idiots,
AND NOW, with the changed avatar, they can read all (not quite ) of it here

by ArmChairCivvy » 09 Mar 2021, 12:26
With the temperatures rising
I thought it was timely for me to change
from the Armchair, to a more
relaxed owl in a Beach Chair
... still very civil; it's in the name!

[Scimitar54]

I suppose it could also be called a WING Chair!

[ArmChairCivvy]

could also be called a WING Chair!

I will use that, to preface my 'blabberings' about Combat Air, going forward.

That is if you don't insist on putting a TM label on it

[Scimitar54]

Most significant, bearing in mind the “ ides of March” the presence of imperial purple and a crown. An Emperor Penguin perhaps?

[NickC]

Janes reporting that Babcock is one of the four bidders for the Indonesia frigate contract with the Arrowhead 140, as OMT have been in talks with Indonesians for several years think it will be a joint bid by Babcock and OMT, suggestions that the Japanese would use foriegn aid to subsidise cost of 30FFM in their anti China alliance. New ship a follow on to the Indonesian Martadinata class, Damen SIGMA 10514 corvettes "30 kt [?] and a standard range of 4,000 n miles at 18 kt. Its weapons include the Leonardo (Oto Melara) 76/62 Super Rapid naval gun, the Rheinmetall Oerlikon 35 mm Millennium Gun, and the VL MICA air defence missile system"

The other bidders are Damen with updated/upgraded variant of the Sigma 10514 (presume similar to the Mexican 10514), Mitsui 30FFM (surprised as Mitsubishi is designer and lead shipyard, Mitsui second shipyard) and Fincantieri FREMM. The 10514 looks an outlier as 30FFM, Arrowhead 140, FREMM approx twice the displacement if not more.

From <https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 4-frigates>

[RichardIC]

And their existing Martadinata class seem to be Tacticos driven which won't do any harm from the interoperability point-of-view.

[cyrilranch]

So if the rumours are to believed(big IF),That 4 T23 are to be retired early out of 13 in the new review out this week.
This will leave the navy with 8 T26 and 5 T31 ships expected to be ordered .
With 9T23's to solder on until 2038 until the last T26's launched and 6 T45's
This giving a total of 14 ships which was not stated in the last 2 reviews.
Aslo there's talk of getting rid of the minesweeper ships early which I find a bit surprising since we are currently in the process of transforming them to remote control drones from a mothership ambient at a slow pace compared to the dutch and Belgium who have already started to order their ships remote drones.
So my question is what will the government " jam for tomorrow " goodies will they offer instead for these cuts?

[abc123]

So my question is what will the government " jam for tomorrow " goodies will they offer instead for these cuts?

Nothing?

[inch]

Nothing except the words ,we are going to be the leading naval power in Europe ,which is debatable in my view not including the nuclear armed subs ,think France or Italy might have a say ,ie France Def on par and Italians have a larger better armed escort fleet or will have than our few good ships and possibly 10 large underarmed opv fleet ,some might say but what about our carriers,well Italians going to have 2 smaller carriers and the limited amount of f35 we getting the Italians not going to be that far behind in reality but with a much larger armed escort fleet ,and French nuclear carriers already and their new carrier/s and Rafale or future fighter ,

[serge750]

I agree the french are on par with the RN or maybe surpass it in some ways, but i would also say that by the time the MN get their carrier to replace CdeG, ( 2038?) let alone a second one in service the RN would have most of the 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 ( we may even know about the T32? .... not that im saying decision making seems to take longer & longer ) in service with the escort numbers as they are now ( well fingers crossed ) maybe we would also have "loyal wingmen" type drones flying of the QEC to shore up our low number of F35

Im trying to be optimistic for the future by having a glass half full approach ...but it is becoming very difficult , just like 2010 when all them escorts etc got ditched

[Lord Jim]

I wonder if the T-32s are to replace the T-31 post 2035, with say eight ordered with the T-31s being sold off as they enter service. Could the T-32 be nothing more that the ship the T-31 could have been with a little more work and funding.

[Jake1992]

I wonder if the T-32s are to replace the T-31 post 2035, with say eight ordered with the T-31s being sold off as they enter service. Could the T-32 be nothing more that the ship the T-31 could have been with a little more work and funding.

I seen that the idea was for the T32s to replace all the MCM vessels and Echo using off board systems.
So what it’s be is it’s look like we’re getting more escorts but infact it’ll be another cut in numbers, more of look over here while we shit over there.

[Poiuytrewq]

The Sun is reporting that HMS Montrose and HMS Monmouth will be decommissioned early as part of the Integrated Review.

"The Navy will lose two specialist sub-hunting frigates, HMS Montrose and HMS Monmouth, as well as its 13 strong fleet of minehunters which are due to be replaced by drones."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14349304/ ... re-troops/

[Jdam]

Remember HMS Argyll is scheduled for decommissioning in 2023.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The Sun is reporting that HMS Montrose and HMS Monmouth will be decommissioned early as part of the Integrated Review.

From the 2 we still get (as per the line of thinking by JDAM above) to the rumoured 4 when we consider the two other rumoured withdrawals to be the ones that have had the writing on the wall since their engine upgrades were skipped, not while 'in the works' but with that decision taken even before them going 'into the works'.

HMS Argyll, a 7 year extension (Feb 2017 to 2023 ), and
HMS Lancaster, a 6 year extension (Dec 2019 to 2024)

Where do we draw the line? In the counting, I mean
- during this parliament?
- with a max. 1 year gap (like with T-boats -> A-boats) between 1-to1 replacements?

[NickC]

Interesting article on the tech aspects of targeting the 30kW proof of concept DragonFire laser. Leonardo beam director work package with the challenging task for an order of magnitude better targeting accuracy than a FCR for guns or missiles required to target laser to a few sq cm's and hold it there for the time necessary for its limited power to burn through. Achieving last few percentage points of most things can be major driver of costs, in this case pinpoint accuracy.

Leonardo in Rome talk on the beam director to "achieve pinpoint accuracy for the ultra-precise tracking and pointing accuracy required to generate a damage effect and it is all being done with mirrors".

LDEW "is getting maximum laser power onto an extremely precise point. This is because you need extremely high laser power density to cause a physical effect and you need to do so at long ranges”

Fast Moving Mirrors” (FMMs), known in the United States as Fast Steering Mirrors (FSMs), which are used to rapidly and precisely maintain the laser beam on target, even when the target is moving, the ship carrying the laser is moving and there is atmospheric interference in between. “To enable this, the beam director is closely coordinated with high-resolution, fast frame rate cameras with advanced algorithms to provide feedback to the beam director, so that the mirrors can make extremely fast and precise movements to keep the beam on-target,”

While accurate target tracking will be handled with mirrors, so-called “coarse tracking” is used to turn the laser towards the target “LDEW systems are large and the beam director needs to be cued to the targets very quickly to point the laser in the direction of the target before the ultra-fine tracking provided by the FMMs takes over”.

We’ve solved this with special low-absorption coating technologies and by carefully choosing the materials used in mirror construction,” To get the beam director ready, Leonardo has built on experience gained working on its Miysis Directional Infrared Countermeasure system (DIRCM). Designed to be used by aircraft, DIRCM turrets fire a laser at incoming missiles to disturb their infrared homing optics.

While accurate target tracking will be handled with mirrors, so-called “coarse tracking” is used to turn the laser towards the target, “LDEW systems are large and the beam director needs to be cued to the targets very quickly to point the laser in the direction of the target before the ultra-fine tracking provided by the FMMs takes over” Coarse tracking will likely involve linking the system to sensors on board, including radar.

If a laser ever fitted to T26/T31/T32 do wonder if ships will need additional radars to Artisan/NS100 for coarse tracking, think earlier post mentioned max targets NS100 could target simultaneously as three, which could be low if ship faced attack by numerous drones

Includes the following good feel sentence, but no info on effective range etc, etc.

MBDA has not released data on the laser’s performance, but officials on the program reportedly believe it has world-beating power and accuracy.

From <https://www.c4isrnet.com/global/europe/ ... acy-boost/>

[Poiuytrewq]

The Prime Minister just announced in the commons,

"By the end of the decade we will have 24 Frigates as opposed to 15 today"

Make of that what you will.

The Integrated Review document states:

• Develop the next generation of naval vessels,
including Type 32 frigates and Fleet Solid Support
ships, and deliver our plans for eight Type 26 and
five Type 31 frigates.

6x T45
8x T23/T26
5x T31
? T32

It will take an increase of FIVE Type 32 Frigates to hit the 24 escort target by the end of the decade.

[Jake1992]

The Prime Minister just announced in the commons,

"By the end of the decade we will have 24 Frigates as opposed to 15 today"

Make of that what you will.

The Integrated Review document states:

• Develop the next generation of naval vessels,
including Type 32 frigates and Fleet Solid Support
ships, and deliver our plans for eight Type 26 and
five Type 31 frigates.

6x T45
8x T23/T26
5x T31
? T32

It will take an increase of FIVE Type 32 Frigates to hit the 24 escort target by the end of the decade.

Sounds good but if like said above if the talk of the T32s replacing all the mcm and echos is true then it really is just a cut not an increase.

[dmereifield]

Mixed feelings about the T32 concept, from a lay perspective

Negative: fewer ships can be in fewer places

Positive: if the MCM mothership (T32) is also escort capable (I.e. T31 or better) then we have more flexibility and more combat capable ships.

I'd be happy to read the views of better informed forum members on this trade off.

What's interesting about the PM's statement is that he stated that there would be 24 escorts by the end of the decade. In which case, it would suggest that the T32 programme would need to run concurrently with T26 and T31, rather than after. Presumably, an order for them would need to be made in the first half of the decade - just before the next GE in 23/24, perhaps, as a nice bit of PR for Boris to show support for shipbuilding industry and the Union if involved NI/Scottish yards - in order to have them built by the end of the decade.

[Jdam]

Hopefully I can be educated here but could the Type 26 be used for the Type 32 concept, my thinking is that we already have the design or is the Type 26 not suitable for the mother ship role?

[cyrilranch]

Hopefully I can be educated here but could the Type 26 be used for the Type 32 concept, my thinking is that we already have the design or is the Type 26 not suitable for the mother ship role?

I think the T26 is too expensive and on the current delivery dates will not meet the magic 24 ships by end of decade

It would be more likely(hopefully) a new order base's on the T31 as follow on order after the last T31 is launched in 2027.
And aslo there's no need to have a T31 setup as a mothership where as bay class can do the job ,so replace 12 ships with 4 to 5 Bay type ships or convert loads of ex oil sevice ships which loads are about doing nothing.

[RichardIC]

Positive: if the MCM mothership (T32) is also escort capable (I.e. T31 or better) then we have more flexibility and more combat capable ships

Hopefully I can be educated here but could the Type 26 be used for the Type 32 concept, my thinking is that we already have the design or is the Type 26 not suitable for the mother ship role?

This doesn't seem overly complicated, although the PM's typically sloppy semantics haven't helped.

-> When Boris refered to frigates he meant escorts.
-> The Type 32 is not going to be a MCM mothership, it's going to be a frigate. That's why it's called a Type 32 frigate.
-> We only know the Type 32's name and the intention they will be built following on from the Type 31 and therefore in parallel with the later Type 26.
-> We can possibly assume the intention is to build five, based purely on the number it would take to get to an overall escort force of 24 (we need to also count the six Type 45 destroyers).

Develop the next generation of naval vessels,
including Type 32 frigates and Fleet Solid Support
ships, and deliver our plans for eight Type 26 and
five Type 31 frigates.

Annex A Page 103

-> We don't know what, if anything, is intended to replace the MCMs. It's not mentioned in the Integrated Review at all.

Hopefully we will get more detailes when the plans to modernise the MoD and military follow on March 22.

The belief that the Type 32 will be a MCM mothership or any other kind of mothership arise purely from one Parliamentary written answer given on November 20 last year. But parliamentary written answers are notoriously vague and short on detail, which unfortunately means they can be spun to mean just about anything the reader wants them to mean.

What was said was:

“The programme and procurement strategy for Type 32 will be decided following the concept phase, which has not yet been launched. Further work is required to develop the operational concept however it is envisioned that Type 32 will be a platform for autonomous systems, adding to the Navy’s capabilities for missions such as anti-submarine warfare and mine countermeasures.”

[SW1]

As I’ve mentioned before I suspect the mcm capability will be containerised and either operated from shore or from any ship that takes the containers much more like the LR5.

The definition of what accepts such systems is open to interpretation and the way things are going it will be were more and more systems are going

[Timmymagic]

Hopefully I can be educated here but could the Type 26 be used for the Type 32 concept, my thinking is that we already have the design or is the Type 26 not suitable for the mother ship role?

The way I see it..(and I'm probably wrong). Type 32 could only be:

- A massively de-specced T26 - Some commonality with T26
- A T31 derivative (Up-specced, or de-specced - this would be hard though..) - Commonality with T31
- A BAE Avenger/Leander derivative to keep BAE's design staff busy until the T45 replacement design gets going- Some Commonality with River B2

There's advantages to all 3 approaches. The sensible approach would be T31 derivative with T45 replacement work starting up soon with BAE. If only T31 could have been built with a proper mission bay....then we could just build 10 rather than 5....