Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[ArmChairCivvy]

We'll see in a few weeks what this is.

The ship yard where they will be built was recently divided into three enterprises, and the winner is supposed to take over the part where the hulls are constructed (assume that fitting out is to be done in the same location?)
- doesn't BAE already have a shipyard in the Oz?
- or, am I mixing up the arrangements for the frigates and the subs?

[inch]

We could both be wrong yet and they pick fremm yet mst00773 lol as you say pal not long too wait and they will decide

[shark bait]

and there will be no such case as "under a minute between detecting a threat and taking a hit" in AAW.

There is no cooperative engagement yet, so even if Crowsnest detects a target in advance, the PAAMS system is still blind and has to start from scratch when it can finally see the target.

For me, it looks as if RN is still thinking the golden era of ASW is there, that the frigate is the hunter and SSK/SSN is the game, which was possible in 1990s.

What is there to suggest that has changed?

The RN needs blue water sub hunting capabilities first, they have the huge tasks of protecting a carrier and deterrent, as well as monitoring Russian activity with the RAF. This is not the environment the explosion in SSK's are effective within, they are simply too slow to attack a carrier group.

Nuclear development happens at a snails pace, and with no civilian application for nuclear propulsion, the technology has not developed quicker than our countermeasures. This is unlike SSK's, which benefit from many civilian applications for electric propulsion, along with quicker technology life cycles, contributing to the rapidly developing SSK's technology that is likely outpacing our countermeasures.

Because of this the ASW game is clearly very different in in coastal environments where SSK's are effective. Here the ball firmly in the SSK commanders court. In this environment the threat of ambush is realistic, and the only way the RN can counter this is with high intensity searches by aircraft.

[matt00773]

We could both be wrong yet and they pick fremm yet mst00773 lol as you say pal not long too wait and they will decide

I would pick the FREMM above the Navantia design for ASW, that's for sure.

[Jake1992]

Does anyone on here know when the new defence review is being released ?
I thought it was meant to come out last month has it been pushed back again or just quietly swept under the rug ?

[inch]

It might be extended. A little jake1992 in light of russian new. Hypo missile threat. Or maybe it should be taken into account at least snd acted on accordingly

[NickC]

We could both be wrong yet and they pick fremm yet mst00773 lol as you say pal not long too wait and they will decide

I would pick the FREMM above the Navantia design for ASW, that's for sure.

The Fincantieri FREMM and BAES Type 26 both use CODLOG, a HED propulsion design with electric motors mounted on propeller shafts powered by four DG's - not requiring the use of a noisy gearbox - and a single high powered GT for sprint speed via a gearbox, whereas Navantia Hobart is CODOG, two diesels or two GT's with gearbox.

The FREMM and T26 more complicated and expensive than the simpler Hobart propulsion system as the trade off for lower ship generated noise as well as a specially designed acoustically optimised hulls optimised for the ASW role.

Navantia with their evolution of the Hobart AAW design may mount diesels and gearboxes on resilient bases and in sound enclosures to partially offset noise, but will not be as quiet as either FREMM or T26.

Will be interesting to see which option Australians chose.

[Jake1992]

It might be extended. A little jake1992 in light of russian new. Hypo missile threat. Or maybe it should be taken into account at least snd acted on accordingly

Hopefully in light of the Russian build up HMG will see it as a kick up the arse and the review when ever it comes out will end up as good news for us.

Fingers crossed that is

[donald_of_tokyo]

What is there to suggest that has changed?

I think so. Sub-crews are enjoying the best days, these days. ASW frigate is using active pinging, which means subs know escort location far before escort knows subs'. This will give a great tactical advantage to SSN/SSK, clearly. This is one of the reasons why JMSDF increased SSK number while cutting the escort number.

Because of this the ASW game is clearly very different in in coastal environments where SSK's are effective. Here the ball firmly in the SSK commanders court. In this environment the threat of ambush is realistic, and the only way the RN can counter this is with high intensity searches by aircraft.

Thus, expecting sudden attack/ambush is natural. Ambush is ambush. "High intensity searches by aircraft" cannot 100% catch it. I am not saying 100% of SSK/SSN contact by an escort will be a sudden attack. I'm just saying, expecting zero sudden attack/ambush is totally a fault. It is naturally expected, albeit shall be avoided as much as possible.

Even in blue water, in RIMPAC, Japanese SSK has "sunk" US CV sometimes. I'm sure SSKs were also "get sunk" many times. I'm just saying the game is not one-side. In short, the golden era of escort+aircraft-based ASW has ended decades ago.

[Tempest414]

in this months warship there is a great article in which a growing number in parliament are calling for the CASD to be moved from the MOD budget and for the budget to be 2.5 GBP

[RetroSicotte]

in this months warship there is a great article in which a growing number in parliament are calling for the CASD to be moved from the MOD budget and for the budget to be 2.5 GBP

£2.50? Guess Hammond got his wish. :p

[abc123]

in this months warship there is a great article in which a growing number in parliament are calling for the CASD to be moved from the MOD budget and for the budget to be 2.5 GBP

£2.50? Guess Hammond got his wish. :p

Gotta say that Hammond is really a big dissapointment to me. I mean, he was Defence Secretary, he knows how fund-starved defence is...

[matt00773]

We could both be wrong yet and they pick fremm yet mst00773 lol as you say pal not long too wait and they will decide

I would pick the FREMM above the Navantia design for ASW, that's for sure.

The Fincantieri FREMM and BAES Type 26 both use CODLOG, a HED propulsion design with electric motors mounted on propeller shafts powered by four DG's - not requiring the use of a noisy gearbox - and a single high powered GT for sprint speed via a gearbox, whereas Navantia Hobart is CODOG, two diesels or two GT's with gearbox.

The FREMM and T26 more complicated and expensive than the simpler Hobart propulsion system as the trade off for lower ship generated noise as well as a specially designed acoustically optimised hulls optimised for the ASW role.

Navantia with their evolution of the Hobart AAW design may mount diesels and gearboxes on resilient bases and in sound enclosures to partially offset noise, but will not be as quiet as either FREMM or T26.

Will be interesting to see which option Australians chose.

The problem for Navantia is that they're hamstrung by their commitment to stay as close as possible to the original design to save on design costs. I doubt the redesign of gearboxes and sound enclosures will be part of what they are offering otherwise its a very different ship and more expensive.

[Digger22]

I'm betting on hull 4&5 being Coventry & Sheffield. So four of the five being named after Falklanders

[andrew98]

Sheffield
Bristol
London
Coventry
Cornwall or Cumberland

With the recent news about the mk41 silo order, could a future growth mod be to replace the forward dedicated CAMM silos with another 3 mk41 modules giving 48 cell, (of which some could be quad pack Camm)?

[Clive F]

Re T26 names (not news so not on T26 thread). I'd put money on London, Birmingham, York, Edinburgh and Manchester/Liverpool

[dmereifield]

Any thoughts bout T31 names? I'd like them to go with something geographical again

[PAUL MARSAY]

Make 48 mk41 forward and increase the midships silo to 48

[PAUL MARSAY]

I thought Belfast was the second ?

[benny14]

I thought Belfast was the second ?

1. Glasgow
2. Cardiff
3. Belfast

[Halidon]

Any thoughts bout T31 names? I'd like them to go with something geographical again

Still holding out for the "unpronounceable class."
Indefatigable
Ossory
Belliqueux
Ranelagh
Pendennis

[Scimitar54]

Fourth and Fifth will be Edinburgh and London respectively

[ArmChairCivvy]

And the 6th (if we ever were to get one) Cornwall
- they were a bit late off the blocks, too
- The first rural devolution deal, but limited in scope. A campaign for a ‘Cornish Assembly,’ similar to the Scottish Parliament, has been ongoing since 2000.

[Smokey]

I'm betting on hull 4&5 being Coventry & Sheffield. So four of the five being named after Falklanders

I was under the impression that the cities given priority for T26 were those synonymous with the Battle for the Atlantic?

If so, Bristol and Liverpool are strong contenders.

[RetroSicotte]

Trying to think what else might be "more connected to the populace" for Type 31. The City class took the cities, obviously.

Perhaps based on Counties?

Alternatively, base it on popular trends.

HMS Fidget Spinner
HMS #NotMyPresident
HMS Bairns Not Bombs (it even suits as T31 will have sod all weaponry. :p )