Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Ron5]

I would also assume Hammond being the lying scumbag that he is, has included the previous announced 600m uplift. So probably just 400m "new" money.

[SW1]

Spread Sheet Phil has just announced £1billion extra for defence with special mention towards cyber security and ASW.. Exactly what this translates to isn’t known, no doubt we’ll find out when the MDP is finally published. Although a billion pounds extra is somewhat of a win for Williamson, it is of course just a sticking plaster on an equipment plan which wasn’t funded properly. Nowhere close to the massive win the MOD will try to spin it as

There was a 250-450m pound deficit in the p8 program numbers were gonna have to be chopped this I assume stops that from happening.

[Poiuytrewq]

£1b more per year obviously needs to be divided up to Cyber and CASD first, but even 30-40% of that heading to the Type 31 total budget could help at least produce a light frigate if they really want ASW out of it.

Its only enough to stop the cuts until the spending review. The best any of us could have hoped for.

Any increase in the ASW sphere I suspect will come from an increase in the P8 order. To be fair this would probably also have the greatest effect for a modest increase in budget. Happy to be proven wrong if HMG increase T26 numbers and/or increase the T31 budget to give the programme a credible ASW capability.

[Aethulwulf]

Taking the announced intention to boost ASW capabilities at face value, what are the options?

1. Buy more P8 Poseidons. The current number would probably struggle to provide 24 hr protection to 2 different areas for any prolonged period (e.g. CASD & CSG). The announced money might be enough to buy one or two more, which could be in service quite quickly.

2. Increase numbers of Merlin Mk2. This could be new build, or upgrading a few of the orphaned Mk1s. Current number of Merlin Mk2 mean it is impossible to deploy 2 carriers and have both ships with 9 ASW Mk2s and 5 Crowsnest. An extra 6(ish) Mk2s would make this at least theoretically possible in a crisis.

3. Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s. Would likely also need extra Merlin Mk2s, or adding dipping sonar and data link to some Wildcat.

4. Build more SSN - not possible with the money announced.

[Poiuytrewq]

Sorry, but your comparison candidate is not appropriate, I think. T31 is in the lowest-end of a light-frigate and your candidate are in the large-light-frigate or small-proper-frigate.

Exactly, this is my main point. Given the budget we must avoid making the T31 unnecessarily complicated. Any money available should be spent on creating a hull to full naval standards and a propulsion system capable of ASW duties if required in the future.

The comparison between the T31 and the Admiral Gorshkov and 054A is valid as these are the vessels most likely to come up against whatever we end up building. If the comparison is uncomfortable, fine, increase the budget and let's build some proper frigates. Both of these vessels cost less than £250m.

Venari must be a 18-20knots vessel

Why? If the Venari's are to be dual role (patrol) 18knts will be far too slow.

As I want this "River-B3-like" to be 25knots speed, I do not like to use Venari series here. Making Venari 25knot is a waste of money, and totally destroy its excellence. Speed costs a lot. Why make Venari so expensive?

Who proposed Venari as a 25knt vessel. I believe 22knts would be optimal. If the Rivers had an embarked helicopter they wouldn't need to achieve 25knts.

A vessel with a 22knt top speed, rapidly deployed 40knt fast RHIBs and an embarked Wildcat is all that is required for the maritime security role.

Because it's believable that they can be built at 250m per.

So does that mean Leander is the only option? Why are we even having a competition? If a vessel with a 16m beam is unachievable what hope has Arrowhead120 with a 19m beam? Non naval standards perhaps?

But the MoD is not. The Type 31e design has to be adaptable to changes but the Type 31e ships are not intended to receive major upgrades during their life.

Does that mean that the Super Leander (TM) concept that you proposed has little chance of becoming a reality?

I don't know, does anybody? I doubt if the design work for just the mission bay can be split out from the rest of the design cost but merely adding an empty shed with a fancy crane to a ship's superstructure falls somewhere on the easy/cheap part of the spectrum.

Even empty sheds and fancy cranes cost money

But why do that? No expense is saved by slavishly using a pre-existing hull. The interior will be completely different. And what makes anyone believe the previous hull has the volume, load bearing, build characteristics, applicable to a ship that will be several decades newer?

Maybe this is the reason this option is not being considered. Maybe it's because RN doesn't want jeopardise T26 numbers. Who knows.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Happy to be proven wrong if HMG increase T26 numbers and/or increase the T31 budget to give the programme a credible ASW capability.

+

Buy more P8 Poseidons

= immediate smoke screen, for bringing on the rest of the capability a 'tad' later

Current number of Merlin Mk2 mean it is impossible to deploy 2 carriers and have both ships with 9 ASW Mk2s and 5 Crowsnest.

= what have I been saying all along, about the SSS helo capacity? Make some Wildcats 'littoral ASW' capable, with a dipping sonar and fly them off 'alternative' berths

Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s

- there we go! Our current "8 tails minimum" will not be in the water [anymore] in 2035
- what is being suggested is 'desperate' measures, not fitting the timeline (anyway), and not talking to the ship building prgrm (just more 'plaster')

[SW1]

Be sure this small increase in funding will not be increasing any numbers it will purely allow the numbers already on order or in service to be maintained somewhat the cuts will just not be as bad as feared.

[Ron5]

So does that mean Leander is the only option? Why are we even having a competition? If a vessel with a 16m beam is unachievable what hope has Arrowhead120 with a 19m beam? Non naval standards perhaps?

Excellent question.

Does that mean that the Super Leander (TM) concept that you proposed has little chance of becoming a reality?

Snowball's in a hot place.

[Ron5]

Taking the announced intention to boost ASW capabilities at face value, what are the options?

1. Buy more P8 Poseidons. The current number would probably struggle to provide 24 hr protection to 2 different areas for any prolonged period (e.g. CASD & CSG). The announced money might be enough to buy one or two more, which could be in service quite quickly.

2. Increase numbers of Merlin Mk2. This could be new build, or upgrading a few of the orphaned Mk1s. Current number of Merlin Mk2 mean it is impossible to deploy 2 carriers and have both ships with 9 ASW Mk2s and 5 Crowsnest. An extra 6(ish) Mk2s would make this at least theoretically possible in a crisis.

3. Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s. Would likely also need extra Merlin Mk2s, or adding dipping sonar and data link to some Wildcat.

4. Build more SSN - not possible with the money announced.

How can they spend money by the end of next year to do any of these?

[Repulse]

Aethulwulf, I suspect you are right with option #1 but seeing that another 3 TAS sets were bought for the T26 then taking a couple of these and upgrading two of the GP T23s should be relatively inexpensive along with upgrading a couple more Merlin Mk2s, and a great way of ultimately gearing up for 10+ T26s.

[dmereifield]

Taking the announced intention to boost ASW capabilities at face value, what are the options?

1. Buy more P8 Poseidons. The current number would probably struggle to provide 24 hr protection to 2 different areas for any prolonged period (e.g. CASD & CSG). The announced money might be enough to buy one or two more, which could be in service quite quickly.

2. Increase numbers of Merlin Mk2. This could be new build, or upgrading a few of the orphaned Mk1s. Current number of Merlin Mk2 mean it is impossible to deploy 2 carriers and have both ships with 9 ASW Mk2s and 5 Crowsnest. An extra 6(ish) Mk2s would make this at least theoretically possible in a crisis.

3. Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s. Would likely also need extra Merlin Mk2s, or adding dipping sonar and data link to some Wildcat.

4. Build more SSN - not possible with the money announced.

How can they spend money by the end of next year to do any of these?

So what money could be spent on enhancing ASW in the next financial year? Wouldn't upgrading the older Merlin's be a possibility?

[ArmChairCivvy]

a great way of ultimately gearing up for 10+ T26s.

See what a 'mere' bn can do ?
- I did omit the 'ultimately'in the above ... so not being too serious

[Repulse]

a great way of ultimately gearing up for 10+ T26s.

See what a 'mere' bn can do ?
- I did omit the 'ultimately'in the above ... so not being too serious

I make it £2.25bn, as I’ve ditched the T31

[inch]

maybe some mq4c to go with the p8 Poseidon to help asw ,just a thought

[RichardIC]

Jeez. This money runs out in 18 months time and then it's gone. It's not going to be used for any extra capital projects so please stop with the shopping lists.

Soaking up P-8 overspend sounds plausible given the timeframe, although I've no idea how the payments are structured (but no extra aircraft). Maybe some minor incremental upgrades to existing systems. Or just operational costs.

[Poiuytrewq]

Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s.

How much would this actually cost?

I cannot see any negatives in upgrading the Frigate fleet to 13 Tier1 ASW escorts.

It would make the argument for increased T26 numbers a lot easier going forward as transferring the tails across to the T31's would be a downgrade in capability, especially if the T31 cannot embark a Merlin.

Along with increasing MPA numbers, this must be priority No1 in the short to medium term.

[abc123]

Any details about that 1 billion extra? Just for this year or for rest of Parliament term?

[shark bait]

Taking the announced intention to boost ASW capabilities at face value, what are the options?

At face value there is £200m extra this year, and £800m extra next year to be split between ASW and Cyber. It exists in the immediate term to cover the cost of P8, without cutting something else. There is nothing new to buy, it just covers the deficit for next year.

It is a step, albeit a small one, in the correct direction. It is a recognition ASW needs boosting, and its bought Mr Williamson some time to build on this small victory.

[Aethulwulf]

Add tails to some T23GP. Again, for those in refit or due for refit, this could be done relatively easily. The tails could then be available for transfer to some of the T31s.

How much would this actually cost?

I cannot see any negatives in upgrading the Frigate fleet to 13 Tier1 ASW escorts.

It would make the argument for increased T26 numbers a lot easier going forward as transferring the tails across to the T31's would be a downgrade in capability, especially if the T31 cannot embark a Merlin.

Along with increasing MPA numbers, this must be priority No1 in the short to medium term.

The main problem would be manpower and training. Fitting the kit is the easy bit. Training up the new ASW specialist crew would take a long time.

But don't worry, the extra money will likely disappear into the P8 programme.

[ArmChairCivvy]

How does all of the above tally with the GP frigates being the first to leave service?

[abc123]

On the other hand, if this will become a permanent increase, why not ise it for pay rise for RN sailors that would be on escort ships, to try to alleviate manpower shortage?

[donald_of_tokyo]

The comparison between the T31 and the Admiral Gorshkov and 054A is valid as these are the vessels most likely to come up against whatever we end up building. If the comparison is uncomfortable, fine, increase the budget and let's build some proper frigates. Both of these vessels cost less than £250m.

Not sure they "cost less than £250m" in UK way of contract.

If the Venari's are to be dual role (patrol) 18knts will be far too slow... I believe 22knts would be optimal. If the Rivers had an embarked helicopter they wouldn't need to achieve 25knts.

Again, I like to have Venari 18..20knots, it is enough as a secondary patrol vessel. Because of River B2 which can reach 25knots, MHPC became MHC = no "P" anymore. let's utilize this fact to make MHC much more cost effective. 22knots is not enough for Patrol but too much for bulky fat hull.


By the way, MDP was further postponed to "next Spring", as I understand. But, we can easily see that MDP will be "absorbed" into SDSR2020, so another 1 year slip shall happen. Reviewing a review only 1 year later is pointless.

This means, T31e will continue to keep its movement. Although "more T26" is my favorite, how to make maximum out of T31e program will be very important topics to be discussed here.

[Ron5]

By the way, MDP was further postponed to "next Spring", as I understand. But, we can easily see that MDP will be "absorbed" into SDSR2020, so another 1 year slip shall happen. Reviewing a review only 1 year later is pointless.

Correct. Williamson now says the MDP will "inform" the government wide spending review. I assume the extra 1 billion is to tide things over until then i.e plug the biggest holes.

[Tempest414]

I make it £2.25bn, as I’ve ditched the T31

A bit fantasy as the 1 billion is not for this so sorry before hand but if we put the extra 1 billion into type 31 to give a 450 million per ship budget and maybe if we could keep it simple we could build a ASW frigate for the carrier group freeing up the type 26 to be a true global combat ship. I was thinking if these ships were acting only as part of the carrier group they could be something like this

130 meters long
19 meter beam
28 knot speed
Artisan radar
CAPTAS-4 TAS
Full width Hagar for 2 Merlin's
2 x boat houses ( NO MISSION BAY)
1 x57mm , 4 x 30mm , 24 cell VLS to carry 32 CAMM and 16 ASROC plus torpedo's and other weapons deployed from Merlin's

[ArmChairCivvy]

There is nothing wrong about building frigate-sized (endurance) specialists (corvettes?) and here is one reasoning:
" The Shivalik class frigates and Kolkata class destroyers have an ASW specific equipment suite consisting of ASW rocket launchers, torpedo tubes, medium range guns, anti missile guns, sonars and surface to air missiles. What the Kamorta does is it just puts all the ASW and self-defense equipment from these 6400+ ton ships on a 3400 ton ship. This means that you now have a ship with the same ASW capabilities as a larger one and at a fraction of the total cost! So instead of sending a 1 billion $ destroyer for patrolling the oceans to hunt submarines, you can send a 250 million $ corvette to do the same job, just as effectively. This allows the Indian Navy to have 4 such corvettes for the price of 1 destroyer."

Tails, more tails and nothing but [at least 8] tails? For us, that is.