Poiuytrewq wrote:Leander on the other hand will never be a C2 or Tier2 Frigate at 117mX14m regardless of how many weapons your strap onto it.
Agreed. It is NOT intended to be C2. Cost says so. Speech even says so. It is NOT a "warfighter".
As an aside, Leander is quoted as requiring a crew of 120. This appears to be the prescibed number even if fitted with very few complex weapons systems in line with the T31 specification. As we have seen with the T26's and QE, quoted crew allocations are subject to change due to experience normally with an upward trend.
What if it turns out that in reality Leander requires 130-140 crew due to increased systems in the future. Is it big enough at 117m X 14m? As a large proportion of the superstructure is taken up with the Mission Bay and Hanger. Where is the margin for future growth?
Crew number is a concern I agree. It will be a place worth investing, if any small more budget is allocated to T31e. As I am NOT a fan of mission bays, I see many reserved space which can be used for accommodation space. I see little problem there.
Every other country in the world is building bigger and bigger vessels apart from the UK who is heading towards replacing 1990-2002 era Tier1 Frigates with much smaller long range Corvettes.
Hopefully a better option comes along....
I am more strict (or realistic). T31e is NOT the
smallest frigate, it is the
largest (and with longest leg) corvette in the world. No irony, I really think so. Again, the cost tells us so. If you could share my standpoint, T31e is a great ship. A corvette overcoming its biggest weak point, range/endurance. I shall never compare it with (proper) frigates around the world, because UK is not paying a frigate cost. It
could be an cost effective solution to handle the current RN tasks, which is predominantly low-mid threats, some of which cannot be covered with OPV.
Saying Leander is not a proper frigate is similar to saying Invincible CVS was NOT a super-carrier. Or, preparing a cost for mini cooper and complaining it is not a jaguar. No, it is not. Clear.
Tempest414 wrote:And this is why I said the C2 or tier 2 frigate should and could be funded at 450 to 500 million pounds or half the cost of a tier 1 ship and using proven technology to stay on budget making it a real tier 2 escort that for me would look like ....
135 meters long 19 meters beam
ASW centred with TAS
crew of 110 to 120 + 50 troops short term deployment
BAE - CMS and Artisan radar
1 x 5" gun without auto feeder
4 x 30mm gun
16 cell VLS to allow 32 CAMM plus other weapons
Full width hangar for up to 2 Merlin's
I bet buying more "less armed" T26 will be cheaper and more efficient. One question, when you say 450-500m GBP, is it unit cost or average cost? It differs a lot. T45 unit cost is ~650M, T26 is ~750M, not 1 billion. Their average cost is, yes, 1 billion.
Pongoglo wrote:Caribbean wrote:Which design are we putting it into? Once a decision is made, we'll be in a position to answer that. I personally, hope that the Arrowhead 140 re-appears in some guise or other, but I won't hold my breath
As indeed do I. Babcock plus OMT are not a bunch of ameuters and if they were confident they could deliver for £250 Mil who are we to doubt?
I doubt them from the beginning. RN "contract" looks like including many many hidden costs. I think Babcock guy was simply thinking about ship building, forgetting all the verifications, naval-standard issues, and "complexity". Babcock has NEVER built a frigate. OMT's only customer is Danish navy, which has a long history of "equipping their ship by their own resource". Very different from UK's.
Leander has some merit but for me in this modern era it is just too small and by not having a Merlin hanger rules out so many options for the sake of a couple of feet. Also when I read their brochure, quote 'awesome fire power ' ?? 12 CAMM in those ghastly mushroom things - are they having a laugh? For Leander read a slow Type 21, equally vulnerable and slightly stretched.
As I stated above, it does have an "good amount of" armaments as a heavy corvette. Again,
UK/HMG is only paying a cost for heavy corvette, while trying to get the largest one.
What we must
call for is NOT a better design. If we want a proper light frigate, we shall
claim for more money. For example, if we cut 5 F35B now, T31 can be a Venator 110. Arrowhead 140 may re-appear, and for sure, Leander is dead.