Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[dmereifield]

Shame not dead in water becouse now think will only be downgraded to khareef type of affair ie lets not step up to the plate lets downgrade even further and do a load of spin

Downgraded in terms of spec or number of units?

[inch]

Spec ,think gov find it hard to spin less numbers after saying growing navy but def spin to a smaller opv and calling it a frigate .just watch this space

[dmereifield]

Spec ,think gov find it hard to spin less numbers after saying growing navy but def spin to a smaller opv and calling it a frigate .just watch this space

I tend to agree that cutting numbers seems like the less likely option given the bad PR, but then again this Government does not seem to care about negative PR - given their track record of continuous f**k ups and poor decision making.

Anyway, if they try to maintain that the T31 would generate 5 "escorts", how could the T31 minimum requirements be downgraded any further? Surely it's not really viable? Even if they did, that would surely favour BAE/CL with the Leander or Khareef variant, which seems to go against the NSBS to diversify away from BAE.

The optimist in me is hoping that what happened is that Leander came in on budget and met the minimum requirements, but Arrowhead140 was maybe 5-10% over budget and 5-10% higher in core crew numbers and the RN/MoD pragmatically realised that this was better value for money. Therefore they needed to change the requirements in order to be able to select the Arrowhead140

[FuNsTeR]

we will probably end up using the type 23s until they fall apart, this government needs shot

[Clive F]

As has been stated numerous times, a cheap asw ship is required. It can do taps, fre etc. It will have UK air cover and can return to port regulary. Only expensive bit will be "quieting ", which going by sir David A. Should be doable relatively cheaply.

[Clive F]

Ps. It will also be unique (cheap top quality asw) so we may be able to sell some to other country's

[Repulse]

As has been stated numerous times, a cheap asw ship is required. It can do taps, fre etc. It will have UK air cover and can return to port regulary. Only expensive bit will be "quieting ", which going by sir David A. Should be doable relatively cheaply.

A small number of a new class, maybe “cheap” to build but once you add the design, training and ongoing support costs can’t see the real benefit from building a few more T26s.

[benny14]

I take the current situation as BAE saw Arrowhead and realized that they could not compete within the price range, so pulled out of the competition. This results in there been only one company in the competition, hence it needs to be reworked, either requirements change, or the price cap raised to bring BAE back in.

Nothing stated suggests that Arrowhead does not fit in the £250m price range. I would suggest the RN seriously look at canceling the competition and doing a sole source contract with them.

[jedibeeftrix]

Can we now chin off the whole T31 concept, and just opt for a few more T26 and lots of those 95m BMT designs for MHCP instead?

[Lord Jim]

we will probably end up using the type 23s until they fall apart, this government needs shot

Orr entire Parliament needs to be sacked without their pensions, and the whole system reworked so that MPs are accually accountable to their electorate first and party second.

[Rambo]

Assuming the T31e program gets ditched I can only see the following outcome:

1. Accept a drop in escort numbers down to 14. This would mean x8 T26 would be safe, at least.

2. Retain River B1 to make up the numbers and use them on standing tasks (as they are now). Look at up arming the remaining B2's now while in build.

3. An increase in the T26 budget is announced but later down the line to increase to 10 or more hulls.

I see option 3 as not a bad option but still a drop in hull numbers. But I see that as inevitable anyway especially with the T31e. The issue I have with the T31e program is that if successful I doubt we would get more than 5, but there would be a huge risk that the T26 program would get cut to 6 hulls. More T26 is the order of the day especially if we want to increase our ASW capacity but ££ is the issue. The only way I could see more T26 being paid for is to cap the F35-B numbers slightly.

[Jake1992]

So UKDJ are reporting that the reason the T31 project has been halted is that none of the bidders could meet the requirements for £250 and that the competion is being restarted.

So what do we think will happen

1- an increase of the £250 per ship price

2 - a further down grade in spec to something that is just a OPV and can't even remotely be claimed as a frigate

[Gabriele]

a further down grade in spec

Considering how miserable the initial requirements were, the next step is "it must be able to float, with preparations".

[Caribbean]

an increase of the £250 per ship price

Well, that's what was stated as being a possibility right back at the beginning.

[Poiuytrewq]

an increase of the £250 per ship price

Well, that's what was stated as being a possibility right back at the beginning.

If only it had of been £350m right from the beginning....

[Caribbean]

If only it had of been £350m right from the beginning....

Colour me cynical, but had the budget been £350m from the start, I believe that we would now be in exactly the same position, with exactly the same proposals, and an accompanying chorus of "you can't build a frigate for £350m", replacing the "you can't build a frigate for £250m". As it is, the extra £100m will be treated as a Godsend, rather than a right, by the ship-builders.

[Jake1992]

If only it had of been £350m right from the beginning....

Colour me cynical, but had the budget been £350m from the start, I believe that we would now be in exactly the same position, with exactly the same proposals, and an accompanying chorus of "you can't build a frigate for £350m", replacing the "you can't build a frigate for £250m". As it is, the extra £100m will be treated as a Godsend, rather than a right, by the ship-builders.

Well I said on here at the beginning of all this that I had a feeling and hoped that the £250m mark was put in to challenge the ship builders and would be raised after see what was offered.

Hopefuly noe that is what will happened, whether by design or by accident

[seaspear]

When people talk about exporting these ships and their costs refer to the South Korean Incheon class program and the costs .
For 250 million pounds they would build a capable ship

[shark bait]

All the talk about exports is just hot air, it exists to distract from a big cut to the RN.

There is no program to make UK shipbuilding more efficient, so new customers wont materialise. The plan is to do the same thing and expect different results.

[abc123]

I wonder, what could be done for 8 Type 26 with 1,25 bln. pounds? That's about 1,6 bln. USD. Buy ASMs and ASROCs?

Say 10-12 NSMs per ship, and 2 mil. USD per missile, that's 200 mil. USD total.
Also 10-12 ASROCs per ship, say 3 mil. USD per missile, that's 300 mil. USD.
Adding CEC for 14 escorts, say 30 mil. USD per ship, that's 450 mil. USD.
Adding CAMM launchers on carriers, say 24 missile, each missile 2 mil. USD, that's 100 mil., let's say 150 with other costs.
Buying NSMs for 6 Type 45, same cost as above, that's about 150 mil. USD.

With the remaining 400 mil. USD, say build 3 additional Rivers B2, they should be able to build them for that amount, it's an old design... To protect British fish against those pesky Europeans.

[dmereifield]

I wonder, what could be done for 8 Type 26 with 1,25 bln. pounds? That's about 1,6 bln. USD. Buy ASMs and ASROCs?

Say 10-12 NSMs per ship, and 2 mil. USD per missile, that's 200 mil. USD total.
Also 10-12 ASROCs per ship, say 3 mil. USD per missile, that's 300 mil. USD.
Adding CEC for 14 escorts, say 30 mil. USD per ship, that's 450 mil. USD.
Adding CAMM launchers on carriers, say 24 missile, each missile 2 mil. USD, that's 100 mil., let's say 150 with other costs.
Buying NSMs for 6 Type 45, same cost as above, that's about 150 mil. USD.

With the remaining 400 mil. USD, say build 3 additional Rivers B2, they should be able to build them for that amount, it's an old design... To protect British fish against those pesky Europeans.

If the T26 is costing £800-1000m each and that doesn't include the cost of fitting, integrating and providing ASM, ASROC and other munitions then we really are getting shafted

[abc123]

I wonder, what could be done for 8 Type 26 with 1,25 bln. pounds? That's about 1,6 bln. USD. Buy ASMs and ASROCs?

Say 10-12 NSMs per ship, and 2 mil. USD per missile, that's 200 mil. USD total.
Also 10-12 ASROCs per ship, say 3 mil. USD per missile, that's 300 mil. USD.
Adding CEC for 14 escorts, say 30 mil. USD per ship, that's 450 mil. USD.
Adding CAMM launchers on carriers, say 24 missile, each missile 2 mil. USD, that's 100 mil., let's say 150 with other costs.
Buying NSMs for 6 Type 45, same cost as above, that's about 150 mil. USD.

With the remaining 400 mil. USD, say build 3 additional Rivers B2, they should be able to build them for that amount, it's an old design... To protect British fish against those pesky Europeans.

If the T26 is costing £800-1000m each and that doesn't include the cost of fitting, integrating and providing ASM, ASROC and other munitions then we really are getting shafted

Considering that Type 45 didn't had that included, except for cannibalised equipment, I seriously doubt that Type 26 has it. MoD wouldn't miss to mention it, if it was included.

[Tempest414]

I think the only way to truly get export orders for British war ships is to have a proper plan of ship building for the RN. One reason the Incheon class is cheap is it is planned to build 20 to 22 ships over 3 batches with each batch improved as the build goes on. for me in real terms the UK should have a 3 tier surface fleet

Tier 1) The escort fleet which should be made up of 25 ships of 3 classes with a new ship coming on line in the fleet each year ( the reason for 3 class is so current type 45 followed by type 26 followed by new type 46
Tier 2) The MHPC class made up of 14 to 18 ships with a new ship coming on line every 2 years
Tier 3) the RFA fleet replace by contract as needed

we can then add to this the bespoke ships like Carriers , LHDs , Icebrakers and so on. for me this would allow the ship yards and the design teams to plan properly and with investment in the yards can take on export orders

[donald_of_tokyo]

I think the only way to truly get export orders for British war ships is to have a proper plan of ship building for the RN. One reason the Incheon class is cheap is it is planned to build 20 to 22 ships over 3 batches with each batch improved as the build goes on. for me in real terms the UK should have a 3 tier surface fleet

Tier 1) The escort fleet which should be made up of 25 ships of 3 classes with a new ship coming on line in the fleet each year ( the reason for 3 class is so current type 45 followed by type 26 followed by new type 46
Tier 2) The MHPC class made up of 14 to 18 ships with a new ship coming on line every 2 years
Tier 3) the RFA fleet replace by contract as needed

we can then add to this the bespoke ships like Carriers , LHDs , Icebrakers and so on. for me this would allow the ship yards and the design teams to plan properly and with investment in the yards can take on export orders

Sorry, but I see zero possibility this plan would be supported and implemented in MDP review.

Or, all escorts must had been of light-frigate like, such as French FTI (now) or MEKO200 (in T22/T23 era). All MHC must be of PSV-like. Then, it is possible. RN just didn't went this way.

Another way for export is, RN building 2nd-tier fleet of its own. French built Floreal and La-Fayettes. But, RN continued avoiding such light-frigate/surveillance-frigate. T31e is going this way. I am not a fan of it, but for export, clearly one of the logical way to go (even though not guaranteeing export, of course). Let's just take a glance on it, and look at what is going to happen.

[Clive F]

Concentrate on what we are good at. Build dedicated (i.e. radar / weapons for ONLY ASW), small but "1st tier" ASW (insert appropriate name, OPC/Frigate/sloop....) ship. Based in Scotland ( for TAPs etc). This would require a smaller crew and shorter range. Make the design life for 15 years and sell on after the 15 years as there will be loads of Nations that require a quality ASW capacity but can not afford brand new.