Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[dmereifield]

[quote="donald_of_tokyo"]

By the way, can someone explain the following, as shown as a specification for Leander?
<Classification and certification>
Lloyds Naval Ship Rules, ✠100A1, NS2 Frigate, SA1, AIR, ESA, RSA, LA, LAP, TA2, LMC, PSMRL, CCS, RAS(ABV)(NT), ELS, FIRE**, ESC**, LSAE**, CEPAC2, MD, SH, POL(I, IV, V, VI, AFS), ENV(A, BWT, OW,IHM, NOx-3, SOx, RS)
ANEP 77 Naval Ship Code[quote]

And 2 further questions:

1) is this list comprehensive - that is to say does this constitute the full standards accepted by RN as being "proper naval standard". Does it align fully with the T45/23/26 standards? Or is it missing some?

2) how many of these standards does AH140 meet?

[Caribbean]

By the way, can someone explain the following, as shown as a specification for Leander?
<Classification and certification>
Lloyds Naval Ship Rules, ✠100A1, NS2 Frigate, SA1, AIR, ESA, RSA, LA, LAP, TA2, LMC, PSMRL, CCS, RAS(ABV)(NT), ELS, FIRE**, ESC**, LSAE**, CEPAC2, MD, SH, POL(I, IV, V, VI, AFS), ENV(A, BWT, OW,IHM, NOx-3, SOx, RS)
ANEP 77 Naval Ship Code

You have a lot of "looking up" to do

Each of those codes represents a specific rule or classification that is applied to the design, so
NS2 = conventional frigate or destroyer shape (NS1 is an aircraft carrier type, ,either conventional or STOL), so NS2 frigate = conventional frigate "shape"
SA1 = Service Area 1 (can't find additional details on that)
RSA = Residual Strength Assessment (residual hull strength requirements after collision or action damage)
Some, like FIRE** and ESC** are fairly obvious, but the ** probably means that specific rules has been "annotated" (i.e. applied in a non-standard form or specified sub-sections omitted or something)
etc, etc

ANEP 77 is Allied Naval Engineering Publication 77, which seeks to apply a common naval safety standard across all the different classification societies (Lloyds, Bureau Veritas, Det Norske Veritas etc, etc)

Have a look here (not all of the rules, just a selection) - it's pretty dry reading. Det Norske Veritas' rules (DNV) are very similar.
https://www.cdlive.lr.org/information/d ... 1%20p3.pdf
https://www.cdlive.lr.org/information/d ... l_v1p4.pdf
Summary of ANEP77 here
https://www.shipjournal.co/index.php/ss ... ew/153/442

[ArmChairCivvy]

Presumably CAAMM will need it's own filler, so from the MDBA website

Lockheed Martin and MBDA announced in May 2013 a cooperative effort between the two companies to offer MBDA missile systems for use with the MK 41 and ExLS family of launchers. The system uses MBDA’s soft vertical launch technology to eject the CAMM from its canister and position the missile for main motor ignition.

Soft-launch technology seems to be getting popular (the Ruskies have used it for a long time, for their "highly energetic" missiles):
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... fault.aspx

[Poiuytrewq]

Does anyone know the origin of the £250m unit price for the T31?

Was it just plucked out of thin air?

[shark bait]

Export hope on T31e, Leander and Arrowhead 140, which is higher?

The chances for either are low. The whole export thing is really just a distraction to take our attention away from another cut.

There is nothing that stops BAE from selling Leander as it stands, it already exists and they are working with Thailand on something similar. Likewise there is nothing stopping Babcock & OMT selling their proposal already. Its a competition between 2 platforms that already exist, and neither sells well internationally.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Does anyone know the origin of the £250m unit price for the T31?

Was it just plucked out of thin air?

Probably, but what would have been the logic of arriving at it? Compare with the original thoughts of the Italian PPA frigate prgrm (as with all such, things evolve along the way): the versions specced for 140 meters, the light version is 4000 tons, the light+ 5000 tons and the full is 7000 tons.
- so instead of such graduation, build on a common hull (I wonder what the length might be )
- do not fiddle with the basics, but do the "graduation" upwards with the weapons/ sensors fit out (the costly bit)
- for any such to be affordable, the "base" version would have to come at that "famous" £250m, so that you can upgrade and still end up appreciably lower than just simply building more T26s

The build price for the early versions of the OMT design have been posted here already (comes within an inch of the £250m); perhaps our Italian correspondents would be able to advise the price for the "barest" PPA version?

[Timmymagic]

There is nothing that stops BAE from selling Leander as it stands, it already exists and they are working with Thailand on something similar. Likewise there is nothing stopping Babcock & OMT selling their proposal already. Its a competition between 2 platforms that already exist, and neither sells well internationally.

All true. Export opportunities for 'high end' warships are few and far between. Most countries who are interested in that capability have shipyards and design teams. Other countries prefer second hand (and the post cold war glut of secondhand warships is still being worked through), other countries only buy from certain countries (North African countries from France and Italy), if a really low price is the USP we can't, and don't want to compete with the Chinese. And a lot of export orders come with that many kickbacks, IP transfers, export credits etc. that you have to wonder if they were worth the candle.

The UK should concentrate on the NSS for its own needs (and the occasional export), selling design expertise, and then look to make exports on the key systems that go in warships (what happened to our radar industry for example?). Sea Ceptor, Ultra electronics sonar kit, Chemrings decoys are all good examples. Look at the exports that Naval Lynx got over the years...There's more money in the systems than there is in the steel.

[shark bait]

There's more money in the systems than there is in the steel.

yes, yes & yes

[Meriv9]

Without the 10years of logistic support (550€) the PPA should cost

Light 430€ (380£)
Light + 480€
Full 530€

[Jake1992]

Without the 10years of logistic support (550€) the PPA should cost

Light 430€ (380£)
Light + 480€
Full 530€

Have you got the expected unit price for the T26 when support and so on is taken out for a comparison ?

[ArmChairCivvy]

unit price for the T26 when support and so on is taken out

2 x the light PPA... expect our own to get to that (half) cost by their MLU, the very latest.

Once we get going (after the 1st in class T26), should be
1 T31 /yr
2/3s of a T26 / yr
coming out.

5 years of T31s, with the targeted 3 year lead in builds would not get to see any T26s beyond the already ordered batch.

[Ron5]

Does anyone know the origin of the £250m unit price for the T31?

Was it just plucked out of thin air?

Osborne's ass

[R686]

Export hope on T31e, Leander and Arrowhead 140, which is higher?

The chances for either are low. The whole export thing is really just a distraction to take our attention away from another cut.

There is nothing that stops BAE from selling Leander as it stands, it already exists and they are working with Thailand on something similar. Likewise there is nothing stopping Babcock & OMT selling their proposal already. Its a competition between 2 platforms that already exist, and neither sells well internationally.

I think your best shot is NZ pending the finial outcome, just cant see them ponying up the $$ for T26 built either by AU/UK. theres a couple of other options like S Korean, but I don't think Canberra are going to be so involved with them this time out considering the Anzac class gamble with them.

[Aethulwulf]

I think the best hopes for T31 export are:

Brazil, to replace their 7 Niterói-class frigates
New Zealand, to replace their 2 Anzac class frigates
Columbia, to replace their 4 Almirante Padilla class frigates

Maybe Portugal, to replace their 3 Vasco da Gama class frigates

[Ron5]

Bae at DIMDEX said they had two good leads for Leander. I'm thinking Columbia for sure for one of them.

[ArmChairCivvy]

thinking Columbia for sure for one of them.

That one goes on and on... so up against French shipbuilder DCNS [1]and a joint Saab-BMT Defence Services [2] bid.

[1] DCNS is proposing its 4,000-ton BELH@RRA (Belharra) frigate, which is envisaged to serve as a bridge between DCNS’ 6,000-ton FREMM and 2,500 to 3,000-ton Gowind designs. The DCNS BELH@RRA is likely to include sensors and munitions from Thales and MBDA, respectively.

[2]
Saab and BMT are offering BMT’s Venator-110 fitted with Saab’s Sea Giraffe active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radars, RBS-15 Mk3 AShM and SME-150 electronic support measures (ESM) system.

A year back the Turkish Milgem design was supposedly high on the list, but the Pakistan deal (at the time advertised as dead-cert seems to have gone to the Chinese?)
- so [3] may or may not be a valid designator... enter Leander?

[Ron5]

thinking Columbia for sure for one of them.

That one goes on and on... so up against French shipbuilder DCNS [1]and a joint Saab-BMT Defence Services [2] bid.

[1] DCNS is proposing its 4,000-ton BELH@RRA (Belharra) frigate, which is envisaged to serve as a bridge between DCNS’ 6,000-ton FREMM and 2,500 to 3,000-ton Gowind designs. The DCNS BELH@RRA is likely to include sensors and munitions from Thales and MBDA, respectively.

[2]
Saab and BMT are offering BMT’s Venator-110 fitted with Saab’s Sea Giraffe active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radars, RBS-15 Mk3 AShM and SME-150 electronic support measures (ESM) system.

A year back the Turkish Milgem design was supposedly high on the list, but the Pakistan deal (at the time advertised as dead-cert seems to have gone to the Chinese?)
- so [3] may or may not be a valid designator... enter Leander?

Bae originally entered its standard corvette design with a 5" gun. I published a picture earlier in the thread. Maybe it's the same ship but now christened Leander

[NickC]

June 7-8 Belgium & Netherlands have signed joint program with 50/50 funding for four frigates and twelve minehunters. The Netherlands will lead on the frigates and Belgium the minehunters.

The frigates may be based on the 2014 Damen Crossover design, the XO139 Fast Combatant version, LOA 139 m; 5,600 tons; 30 knots; 108-125 crew, with accommodation for another 128, one stand out feature as with the new Italian PPA frigates is the installation of Heavy Weight Torpedoes tube launchers for ASW.

Design based on similar thinking to OMT IH " SMART USE OF STANDARDS RESULTING IN LOW COSTS DSNS’s vast experience in applying a clever mix of commercial and naval standards and specifications results in the required naval quality and systems characteristics, while achieving low support costs through the competitive pricing and availability of the applied Commercial Off-The-Shelf (COTS) solutions."
The OMT design for the IH used shock proof islands/decks so as to fit COTS kit and still meet full NATO naval standards for shock proofing.

Damen XO designs use their well developed modular building system allowing customised options for payload areas, CMS, weapon, and platform systems etc., different but not too far from the Danish Navy drop in standard FLEX containers used on IH for weapons and sensors.

[Aethulwulf]

Belgium and the Netherlands Signed the MoU for New Frigates & MCM Vessels

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ssels.html

[Aethulwulf]

ThyssenKrupp's Naval Shipbuilding Division Faces Headwinds

TKMS is a loss-making division of ThyssenKrupp. ThyssenKrupp may decide to divest TKMS, or to close some of its yards. 

https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... gs.zsU3PQs

[donald_of_tokyo]

Belgium and the Netherlands Signed the MoU for New Frigates & MCM Vessels

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ssels.html

http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... Navy_1.jpg
Doesn't look like a Crossover? Or, at least, looks like omitting the flex-deck?

New_Supply_Ship_Frigates_and_MCM_Vessels_for_Dutch_Navy_1.jpg

https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/cr ... over-139cf

Crossover_139CF.jpg

[Aethulwulf]

This is a model of what Alion is offering for the Canadian Surface Combatant, displayed at CANSEC 2018. It is based on the Dutch De Zeven Provincien-class frigate.

[ArmChairCivvy]

2014 Damen Crossover design, the XO139 Fast Combatant version, LOA 139 m

Getting crowded "at the bar"... you need to be around 140m (the 6 foot equivalent) to be on the "invited list" and be admitted

[NickC]

8th June USCG buying two Mk 110s for $16.4M, one for a 4,500T Legend and second for the first 3,730T Heritage OPC (Militaryaerospace)

£6.2M each (@ £1.33 to $), price USCG is paying BAES US for the Mk 110 57mm/2.2 inches Mod 0 gun mounts and related hardware, GM consists of a 57 mm gun, muzzle velocity radar, power distribution panel, barrel-mounted television camera, a ruggedized laptop computer gun control panel, and an ammunition hoist.

Mk 110 one of the options for the T31e gun, USN has had many problems over the years of hitting targets with gun during trials installed on the LCS ships, does not come with a fire control radar.

[Tempest414]

It dose say on the PDF under C&C link in with a digital fire control system. Could this mean that the CMS / FCS on the LCS was at fault and not the gun or is it the gun. also if there is a problem with the gun why do they keep buying them?