Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Lord Jim]

Standing outside the box, you could look upon the T-31e as the naval equivalent of the F-16. When envisages is was to be a cheap day fighter with a secondary ground attack capability. Armed with a gun, a few IR AAMs and dumb bombs it did what it was designed to do but it also incorporated the potential to gain extra capabilities from the start. The plane has been successively upgrades throughout its career and now is one of the most capable warplanes flying though not the top of the table. As long as the T-31e design chosen has the potential to grow who knows what configuration the ships will be in 15 years after they enter service. A lot can happen in that time or then again they could still be the same vanilla flavour.

[Ron5]

focused on the 250 million. From the get go, I think they realised that was not doable with a new design so existing or modified designs would be the only way to go.

now [we have a fresh start and I think] Babcock's will also be very focused on price to perhaps, the exclusion of most else

Yes, that is how the process was designed: This time around, Thou Shall Not Waste two hulls' worth of money on
.... trying to reinvent the wheel

I do not have a Biblical Quote for seeing the light (there must be quite a few available, though)

Ecclesiastes: "I saw that wisdom is better than folly, just as light is better than darkness"

[Ron5]

Or "Sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is a train"

[donald_of_tokyo]

I do not think future growth margin is so much important in T31e. We have "growth margins" elsewhere in the fleet, because RN has shifted from "fleet of densely packed vessels (T42 and T23 in particular) to "relaxed large hull with many growth margins (T45 and T26, and CVF itself)".

I will rather propose to start testing a "FLASH sonar on an USV"? Will be bad at blue water, but HOW BAD? Any countermeasure can be tested? We need to test it. RN warships have so many mission bays to fill (at least 8 T26, 5 River B2, 5 T31e, and coming 8-12 MHCs).

(sorry this is fantasy realm) --------
Even a Leander T31e can carry 2 of these drones. We need "9 Merlin HM2" to keep 24/7 ASW sonar in the water, but cannot this FLASH-drone be sent in 50% duty, so that 2 such drones are enough for 24/7 operation, albeit in "relatively" calm water, say, sea state 4 or so? Merlin is fast, can cover wide range, but it is not good at stationed operations. And, in shallow water, I think stationed pinging has some real needs. Even if you cannot find enemy sub at the bottom, you can prevent them from moving.

Yes sonobuoy are there to do so, but a FLASH is much much capable than any of LFAS sonobuoys.

With one hull sonar on T31e, and one 24/7 stationed FLASH from its ASW drones, or two such drones if it is 1 day operation, may be enemy SSK will find big difficulty?
------ (fantasy ends)

Anyway I think "growth margin" is NOT important for T31e. Please do not misunderstand me, Arrowhead 140 is good for me. But, I just think its growth margins are not important. (albeit good sea keeping, large cargo holds, and higher speed will be).
(But this is in place of larger fuel consumption ...)

[shark bait]

FLASH on a USV is a nice idea, especially if it can take some of the pressure off the Merlin fleet. The Israelis are doing something similar on a small USV, something similar easy to imagine such as dipping sonar module developed for the back of our mine hinting drone boats.

Could be useful for littoral work and monitoring underwater assets, however its more difficult to see how it could work with a task group doing 24 knots in rough seas, that is a much more challenging requirement for a small ASW boat.

[Tempest414]

So on the 6th of June Guto Bebb is on record as saying HMG is spending 63 Billion pounds on the RN over the next 10 years

[Jake1992]

So on the 6th of June Guto Bebb is on record as saying HMG is spending 63 Billion pounds on the RN over the next 10 years

Does that include the dreadnoughts though ? If so then there's not a lot going on the fleet really

[benny14]

So on the 6th of June Guto Bebb is on record as saying HMG is spending 63 Billion pounds on the RN over the next 10 years

Does that include the dreadnoughts though ? If so then there's not a lot going on the fleet really

Submarines is £44bn, Ships is £19bn. £63bn in total.

[Jake1992]

So on the 6th of June Guto Bebb is on record as saying HMG is spending 63 Billion pounds on the RN over the next 10 years

Does that include the dreadnoughts though ? If so then there's not a lot going on the fleet really

Submarines is £44bn, Ships is £19bn. £63bn in total.

That's perfeticaly low ( £19bn on ships ) it's says a lot when the ran an RCN look to be spending more on ships over the same time

[shark bait]

£19bn in 10 years? where on earth is that money going?

That's a billion pounds for each escort and each carrier

[abc123]

I think it is fair to say that the RN and Babcock know that the Absalon class would make a better GP platform. However what they also know is that if 5 Absalon's come on line the 2 Albions would be sold off before the second hull hit the water. The IH offers 2 big things 1st NATO call them a frigate so HMG can call them frigates and 2nd they are no threat to be Albions

I was thinking the exact same thing. Look at the US Navy, the Wasp and America class Assault ships would, if in any other navy in the world, be considered fully fledged aircraft carriers, the reason why the navy doesnt call them this, and haven't put ski jumps on the front(there's plenty of room and would completely maximise flexibility) is because they think the politicians would then look at these and think why do we have these big expensive super carriers when we can have this and fraction of the price and operating costs, they would cut their coveted supercarriers.
The same goes for the Albions, the reason we shouldn't go for Absalon is because the government would look at these and say, if we can have a lot of these, with big fancy looking guns and stuff(from their perspective) then why do we need these massive expensive specialist ships that can only carry a couple of hovercrafts and a few speedboats, there's no need, right?
This is the scenario(although unlikely) that could happen if we go for a large amphibious focused T31, that's why I think Absalon would be a bad idea, besides the IH offers great flexibility across the board already, you shouldn't need anymore than what the IH offers, there's so much potential in the design for future batches and procurements.
Although dual hangar would be nice but doesn't fit the requirements for T31.

But they (HMG) want to scrap Albions allready and have sold one Bay even without Absalons. So, why not have something in reserve?

[Aethulwulf]

Roughly half of the £19bn is spent on supporting in service kit and ships, and half on buying new kit and ships.

Projects include:
•Bringing QE and PoW into service (inc. further improvements to HMNB Portsmouth)
•Project Napier for T45
•Shaman CESM fit for T45
•life extension refit for T23
•batch 2 Rivers
•T26
•T31
•Fort Victoria refit
•FSS
•Tide tankers
•HMS Magpie
•new Workboats
•HMS Scott refit
•unmanned MCM systems
•Fast Patrol Launches for Gibraltar

[benny14]

£19bn in 10 years? where on earth is that money going?

That's a billion pounds for each escort and each carrier

The carriers are already paid for. Purchasing wise, it will be the Type 26, Type 31, FSS, and whatever else they are planning on buying. The rest is support costs for the whole ship fleet.

[shark bait]

spending.png

Equipment support tends to be a little less than half of the equipment budget, so can we assume 9 billion for support, lets also assume a generous 3 billion to bring the carriers into service.

That leaves 7 billion for non carrier capitol expenditure, spent on what?

[matt00773]

So on the 6th of June Guto Bebb is on record as saying HMG is spending 63 Billion pounds on the RN over the next 10 years

Does that include the dreadnoughts though ? If so then there's not a lot going on the fleet really

Submarines is £44bn, Ships is £19bn. £63bn in total.

£13.5bn for weapons looks interesting...

[benny14]

Will people STOP quoting the massive picture...

That leaves 7 billion for non carrier capitol expenditure, spent on what?

Type 26, Type 31 and FSS.

[shark bait]

I know what its suppose to be spent on, but the reality is three T26, three SSS and three T31 does not equal 7 billion.

What are we missing?

[benny14]

What are we missing?

All of the escorts will be paid for in that timeframe.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Initial 3 T26, 3.7B GBP.
MARS SSS 1B GBP.
On QECV, I think PoW is not yet handed over to RN? Because it is 2016-2026 spending (we are now living in 2018), I think it includes lots of QECV costs. May be 3B?

Additional 5 T26 (with 4.3B in total), of which 3 or 4 will be in various stages of building = may be 1-2B or so?
And, T31e, 1.25B.

This makes up ~10B, I guess?

Note; the diagram lacks the name of T31. I'm afraid it is intentionally. Not saying it is cancelled, but saying its cancellation is still on the table?

[benny14]

Note; the diagram lacks the name of T31. I'm afraid it is intentionally. Not saying it is cancelled, but saying its cancellation is still on the table?

This has been stated many times. The Type 31 budget still comes under the Type 26 program.

[donald_of_tokyo]

This has been stated many times. The Type 31 budget still comes under the Type 26 program.

Is it true? When the review board asked RN, they answered so. But, it was on the timing of standing up of T31e program. If the T31e program cost is still in the T26 program, there are many chance to cut 1 T26 and add 3 more T31, or in place, make T31e just 4 OPVs, and add 1 T26. Anything will be possible, because if the cost backet is the same, I guess Treasury will not care how RN uses it. ??

[benny14]

Is it true? When the review board asked RN, they answered so. But, it was on the timing of standing up of T31e program.

It may potentially have split in to its own pot by now. It will be whatever money was left over from the Type 26 program after budgeting for 8 ships.

May be more than £1.25bn, depends on what was in the pot originally and how much is left over.

[Zero Gravitas]

Seeing a separate £13.5bn budget for missiles makes me think it's much more likely that T26 and T31 will actually have their various silos filled.

[benny14]

Equipment support tends to be a little less than half of the equipment budget, so can we assume 9 billion for support, lets also assume a generous 3 billion to bring the carriers into service.

That leaves 7 billion for non carrier capitol expenditure, spent on what?

Here is the actual breakdown of the ship budget.

[shark bait]

looks like my £7 billion estimate wasn't far off.

3bn for the T26, 1bn for the SSS, what's happening with the rest? or is the T26 costing even more than that?