Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Lord Jim]

I doubt it would be an even division between the three services, and under current discussions simply filling the hole of a major difficulty. BMD for the T-45 will stay on the "Nice to have" wish list and extra T-31s would be on the fantasy one. In fact I would be surprised if the Navy got anything above extra personnel and filling the holes in its existing programmes. The current tensions with Russia have thrown a massive spotlight on the Army and its lack of capabilities. The both the Navy and Air force actually get what is already planned, plus extra personnel, they will both be in a pretty good position.

[donald_of_tokyo]

How will the T45 PIP contract affect the T31e program?

1: good

tighter relation and good "training to work together" for BAES and CL (and BMT).


2: bad

capacity is OK? Labor man power of CL will shift from MV SD Attenboroug to T45, but T45 upgrade and T31e might be in parallel?

How about the dock capacity?

[Repulse]

If funds stay static, one option of course is to go 6 T45 + 9 T26 + 5 B3 Rivers. B3 effectively B2 plus a medium gun and retractable hangar.

The would give:
- 5 B2 Rivers for UK Fisheries and EEZ
- 5 B3 Rivers forward based for FIGS, WIGS, APT(S), GiGS and EoS.
- 2 carrier strike groups- peacetime 2 T45 + 1 T26 (using 6 T45 and 6 T26)
- 3 T26s to provide one permanent EoS warship and can be attached to CSG when also EoS
- 3 T26s for FRE and TAPS

[Poiuytrewq]

The Batch 3 River is very interesting, I have been looking at what it could add recently too.

What is the likely cost difference between a Batch 2 or Batch 3 River?

Would the Avenger concept with a fixed hanger also be an option, minus the CAMM cells. Could the crane be moved amidships and use this area for containerised systems or extra ISO containers for Humanitarian relief. It might cause stability problems but with a helicopter embarked on a B3 River ISO capacity is nil.

I am struggling to see at present what a Leander at £250m which would probably have 57mm,CAMM,CIWS and an HMS adds over a B3 River with a 57mm for the tasks their are likely to perform.

If ISO container capacity is a concern for the T31 the Leander concept which appears to be the front runner only has room for 1, possibly 2 containers unless the flight deck is used and then the helicopter can't get out of the hanger to help with any relief effort.

[Repulse]

The argument for the T31e was two fold. The first was that the navy needed to grow (or maintain hull numbers in MOD reality) and boost UK manufacturing by export sales.

If funds and the associated (primarily Russian) threat increase then the first part of the argument is less. Whilst an unmanned / lightly manned ASW ship is attractive it still needs to operate in a high threat environment with a more capable warship.

The market is flooded with cheap warships already so I cannot see the logic for a T31e, and even if countries liked the design they would push for it to be built locally. For real export success then the U.K. should focus on higher end warships but most of all specialist warships (such as the Venari 85) or off board systems.

If more funds are coming the RNs way then more T26s and SSNs has to be the priority and compliment with cheaper forward bases B3 River Sloops.

[Lord Jim]

So if I have read the many post above correctly, the majority believe the T-31e for the RN as planned is a nowhere platform, too capable for patrol duties and not capable enough for escort duties. Would someone who knows his(or her) stuff be kind enough to list what is the MINIMUM required to make the T-31e a useable escort and cost said design.

[Repulse]

So if I have read the many post above correctly, the majority believe the T-31e for the RN as planned is a nowhere platform, too capable for patrol duties and not capable enough for escort duties. Would someone who knows his(or her) stuff be kind enough to list what is the MINIMUM required to make the T-31e a useable escort and cost said design.

Depends what you want it to do. I'd say for a short legged ASW Frigate it's probably the French FTI Frigate which has a programme cost of €3.8bn for 5 ships.

If it's a war fighter then the cheapest UK approach IMO opinion is building more T26s.

[Caribbean]

I recall a similar conversation only a short while ago - the Avenger minus CAMM etc is pretty much what we should have had as the River Batch 2. Basically a River with a hangar and amidships "mission bay" for boats and containers. Built completely to civilian standards, and carrying the same sensors and guns etc as the B2s, in order to keep them simple and cheap to operate. The existing Rivers (B1 and B2) are designed for patrol, security and police actions within support of land-based forces, or when co-operating with more capable vessels. The T31e is intended to operate at distance, as a singleton and needs the capability to survive attack from the kind of forces (governmental or otherwise) that it is likely to encounter in the course of its duties (i.e. pirates armed with ex-military weapons, FIACs, corvettes and light frigates operated by second and third tier navies).
I also don't believe that Leander is the front-runner. BAE are just making most noise at the moment. Things will change once the other bidders start putting more flesh on their proposals.

[Old RN]

If one uses the Falklands as a reference (the last serious hot war the RN fought) then any platform carrying CAMM and a good radar set plus a decent helicopter would be seen as of value?

[Aethulwulf]

So if I have read the many post above correctly, the majority believe the T-31e for the RN as planned is a nowhere platform, too capable for patrol duties and not capable enough for escort duties. Would someone who knows his(or her) stuff be kind enough to list what is the MINIMUM required to make the T-31e a useable escort and cost said design.

The MINIMUM for a T31e to act as a close consort escort for RFA or commercial ships would be:

Artisan radar or equivalent
Combat Management System
Full comms suite
Wildcat capable flight deck and hanger
Magazine for Wildcat weapons (inc Stingray)
Sea boats
6500 nm range and 28 day endurance
ES and Defensive Aids
Hull mounted sonar
57mm main gun (or larger)
CAMM (24 or greater)

This would provide basic ASW (HMS + Wildcat), limited area AAW (Artisan + CAMM), and basic ASuW (Wildcat + 57mm).

It should be noted that close consort escort is not a core requirement for T31, but is in the growth requirements.

A hull mounted sonar and extra numbers of CAMM would be need to be added to the T31 'core' to allow the T31 to take on a very basic close consort escort role. But this would not be enough to allow the T31 to be an escort in high intensity combat ops (i.e. with the Carrier).

[Gabriele]

Wildcat capable flight deck and hanger

Biggest and most damaging bottleneck they introduced in the design. It kills the capability of the ships and condemns it to never being able to sustain an aviation element more meaningful than Wildcat. Stupidest thing in the entire Type 31 requirements list.

[Aethulwulf]

I was just answering the question about the minimum requirements for a basic escort...

The programme has just completed the value management phase which "has allowed the MoD and candidate bidders to explore ‘trade space’, understand programme parameters and iterate potential design solutions so that unnecessary cost can be driven out of proposed solutions, while ensuring that quality and capability are maintained as far as possible."

I would not be surprised to see findings that point to a Merlin capable flight deck and hanger being top of the list of biggest capability enhancement for lowest extra cost.

[SKB]

They may as well cancel the T31e and just buy an additional five River class instead. Plenty of river names remaining in the UK to choose from.

[Caribbean]

What's the point in buying more River class? Outside of EEZ patrol, they are pretty much useless. Their biggest contribution to the "War on drugs" in the Caribbean was using their rubber dingy to transfer a prisoner (that they had played no part in arresting) between two USCG vessels.

[Poiuytrewq]

I suspect if the Rivers had of come equipped with an embarked helicopter they would have been a bit more useful. Did the USGC vessels not have a dingy?

I am sure the Americans are pleased that they can always rely on the British to make a meaningful contribution to any task group with their dingys

[Lord Jim]

Additional Rivers would not go amiss to patrol British waters as we a woefully short of patrol vessels even when the vessels already planned enter service.

Regarding the flight deck of any T-31e design, it is pretty much guaranteed that the flight deck and hanger will be able to operate any helicopter up to the NH-90 or SH-60, which are becoming the most common types.

Of the list provided by Aethulwulf, I think we will see the majority of these incorporated in the final design. The initial specs have go the ball rolling, but before the design and winner are confirmed I seriously think the spec are going to be unrated to provide a more viable platform, and far more Warship than Patrol vessel. The cost increase to the programme for such a gain would not be significant, especially if commonality is kept with that going into the T-26. The biggest additional cost would be the hull sonar, but including it at the start will be far cheaper than retrofitting it at a later date. Basically we are going to end up with a T2 class vessel to back up the T-26/T1. Thee will probably be growth potential to add capability at a later date, such as the RN's future AShM. The list didn't include a separate CIWS, but if the BAe/Bofors 57mm is chosen, again that is a capability that can be incorporated either at the start or later on.

There is absolutely no way the RN is getting additional T-26's even if Defence spending is increase to cover more than the current holes. In all probability the RN future is more ties to the T-31e than the T-26, with the follow class of escorts being based on a hull of similar size to the former rather than the latter. The T-26 is the result of the RN writing a wish list and actually getting what it desired. The chances of that happening again are very slim and I am amazed they are still getting any. If the whole FSC programme hadn't been as badly run as the Army's to replace the CVR(T) they probably would nave got the T-26 at all, but at least they are getting a more relevant platform than the Army with Ajax.

[Repulse]

The T26 is called a Global Combat Ship for a reason; it can sail and give a sustained fight at distance from the UK. The T31e at best, with all of the bells and whistles described above, will be a local fighter, either in the North Atlantic or forward based. It is possible to make the T31e work, but we are talking about numbers that have so far been dreamt of (I.e. 20+).

[benny14]

but we are talking about numbers that have so far been dreamt of (I.e. 20+).

Big dreamer there... Here I am hoping for a 6th and 7th type 31.

[Tempest414]

We need to be clear that type 31 will be big step up from a B2 River this being said I feel the B1 Rivers should be refitted and put back to work in home waters which in turn will release one or two of the B2's to work in the Western Med

[Repulse]

but we are talking about numbers that have so far been dreamt of (I.e. 20+).

Big dreamer there... Here I am hoping for a 6th and 7th type 31.

The point I’m making is that there is a balance between forward presence and the ability to surge first rate ships at distance from the UK. The RN has always been too far to the latter the danger is though that we will go to a slightly larger number of short legged ships that will be too far away / struggle to get to a conflict.

By all means let’s have forward deployed presence ships with Patrol and specialist roles (such as MCM), but also let’s maximise our funds into the real war fighting CSGs and SSNs.

[Tempest414]

I think we need to remember that a single ship no matter how good it is open to attack this is not new i.e HMS Prince of Wales & HMS Repules in 1941. type 26 has the makings of a great ship but it alone can not take the fight to a enemy

[benny14]

The point I’m making is that there is a balance between forward presence and the ability to surge first rate ships at distance from the UK. The RN has always been too far to the latter the danger is though that we will go to a slightly larger number of short legged ships that will be too far away / struggle to get to a conflict.
By all means let’s have forward deployed presence ships with Patrol and specialist roles (such as MCM), but also let’s maximise our funds into the real war fighting CSGs and SSNs.

The RN structure is geared towards a single CSG. The type 31 is intended to release Type 26s for the job. I honestly dont think we will ever forward deploy an escort. Type 31s will take up jobs like fleet ready escort, NATO missions as well as counter piracy, counter drugs and security patrols in the Mediterranean, Falklands and Gulf.

The Type 26s and Type 45s will deploy for training, the occasional solo mission and one or two carrier deployments a year. With one Type 26 available for TAPS permanently.

With the Type 31s taking up alot of the basic workload, it should hopefully free up more higher end escorts. Giving us 1 Type 26 for TAPS, 2-4 for carriers duties, and going off the current Type 45s availability rate with proper manpower, 3-4 Type 45s ready for carriers duties. If we get more than 5 Type 31s then all the better for the high end fleet.

[Gabriele]

5 Type 31, less capable than the existing 5 Type 23 GP, will not release anything more than now. Possibly less, in fact. Type 31 as Fleet Ready Escort, for example, is it really viable?
And Type 31 does not relieve the Bay from Caribbean duty; and does nothing for asw in Kipion area. It's why i do not believe in this whole thing. From wichever angle i look at it, i see them not fixing any of the problems the fleet faces.

[donald_of_tokyo]

5 Type 31, less capable than the existing 5 Type 23 GP, will not release anything more than now. Possibly less, in fact. Type 31 as Fleet Ready Escort, for example, is it really viable?

T31e as FRE has no problem in most cases. Only when ASW is needed, T31e cannot do it well. But, T23GP sometimes sails without ASW crew, if I remember correctly, so not much different from T23GP in this sense? Also if T45 is in FRE, little ASW capability as well.

And Type 31 does not relieve the Bay from Caribbean duty; and does nothing for asw in Kipion area.

RN escort(s) in Kipion is "one of the allied fleet". RN sometimes send ASW frigate, sometimes AAW, and sometimes GP, I guess. And anyway, every deployment has mid-deployment "vacancy" = not always at duty.

Also, I do think T31e will be able to relieve Bay from Caribbean. Not saying it can replace it. But we all remember APT-N was a frigate several years ago, even T21. No internal margin space, no mission bay, only Lynx flight deck and hangar. T31e is much better than it. Even if we send T42 (not T45), there is almost no difference, other than twice large number of crew.

It's why i do not believe in this whole thing. From wichever angle i look at it, i see them not fixing any of the problems the fleet faces.

Even though I also do not "like" T31e program, I cannot say it is useless. More better approach could be there, I agree, but T31e itself is not useless.

[benny14]

5 Type 31, less capable than the existing 5 Type 23 GP, will not release anything more than now. Possibly less, in fact. Type 31 as Fleet Ready Escort, for example, is it really viable?
It does not relieve the Bay from Caribbean duty; and does nothing for asw in Kipion area. It's why i do not believe in this whole thing. From wichever angle i look at it, i see them not fixing any of the problema the fleet faces.

I am not talking about taking up duties from support ships. The Caribbean absolutely does not need an escort, that would be a waste. The Type 31 is happening, no amount of wishful thinking will change that. We all know that it is less capable than the Type 23, so lets figure out how to best use it. Use the Type 31s for lower end tasks to free up the Type 26s for higher end tasks. If we can get more than 5 Type 31s eventually then all the better.

Lets be honest, the majority of the Russian ships that get escorted by the fleet ready escort could mop the floor with it. Nowadays it is essentially just a wave the flag exercise, us saying we see you and are watching. Type 26 or Type 31, does not really matter.

As for Kipton, we deploy Type 45s with a Wildcat and Type 23 GPs there all the time. Again more flag waving, the majority of the time our escort is integrated with a US or French carrier group.