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Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Old RN
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Old RN » 12 Nov 2017, 12:57

marktigger wrote:are the type 45's sound suppressed?

That should not be too much of an issue with a TA. If there was a T26 and a T45 in escort the T45 would be detected by the T26 TA anyway?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby abc123 » 12 Nov 2017, 14:17

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
In short, I am very much interested in the beam-width and displacement of Cutlass/Leander proposal.cutlass_leander_1.jpg


Where will you put ASMs there? ( for export customers, not everyone is convinced that ASMs are not necessary ).
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 12 Nov 2017, 14:27

abc123 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:In short, I am very much interested in the beam-width and displacement of Cutlass/Leander proposal.cutlass_leander_1.jpg

Where will you put ASMs there? ( for export customers, not everyone is convinced that ASMs are not necessary ).
Not difficult. For example, mission bay or alike is not always popular for export customers. So, how about in place of "2x ISO containers"?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby abc123 » 12 Nov 2017, 14:29

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
abc123 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:In short, I am very much interested in the beam-width and displacement of Cutlass/Leander proposal.cutlass_leander_1.jpg

Where will you put ASMs there? ( for export customers, not everyone is convinced that ASMs are not necessary ).
Not difficult. For example, mission bay or alike is not always popular for export customers. So, how about in place of "2x ISO containers"?


How about leaving area right of CAAM VLS empty, for Harpoon/ASM launchers?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 12 Nov 2017, 14:39

abc123 wrote:How about leaving area right of CAAM VLS empty, for Harpoon/ASM launchers?
May be. Here is my estimated "top view".
スクリーンショット 2017-11-12 23.39.00.jpg

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby abc123 » 12 Nov 2017, 15:00

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
abc123 wrote:How about leaving area right of CAAM VLS empty, for Harpoon/ASM launchers?
May be. Here is my estimated "top view".スクリーンショット 2017-11-12 23.39.00.jpg


Not bad.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 12 Nov 2017, 15:22

matt00773 wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:Providing escorts for the two carriers is likely to take up the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. The other two T26 will be busy protecting the CASD SSBNs.


T45 and T26 are much more capable individually than previous generation ships and utilising most of the surface fleet to just escort the carriers would be overkill in the highest sense. There's usually just one T45 that provides air defence for US carrier fleets - a role they are frequently requested to perform. Also, the less capable Horizon class and a couple of FREMMs are often seen as the only escorts for the French carrier.

Moreover, any carrier fleet of the US typically has a variety of support ships of other nations - UK, NL, Denmark, Australia etc. This would be no different for UK carrier fleets.
It has been stated that the UK carrier group will normally be formed of 2 T45s and 2 T26s, plus a Tide and a FSS. This is far from overkill.

A US CSG is normally formed of Ticonderoga-class cruiser and 3 or 4 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers (plus support ships). At times, one of these has been replaced by a ship from a partner nation such as the T45. The T45 has even been tasked with the command of the air defence of the group - but the other ships in the group are still required to provide the full air defence cover.

A French carrier battle group is normally composed of two anti-submarine frigates, one or two anti-air destroyers (Horizon or Cassard class), one light frigate in forward patrol and one supply ship. Again at times, one or two of these has been replaced by a ship from a partner nation.

For the UK, supporting two carriers (with one always at very high readiness or deployed) with escorts will require most of the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. Sometimes an escort might be provided by a partner, but the bulk of the work will fall on the RN fleet.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby bobp » 12 Nov 2017, 16:40

donald_of_tokyo wrote:May be. Here is my estimated "top view".




スクリーンショット 2017-11-12 23.39.00.jpg (69.16 KiB) Viewed 35 times


Where do the ships RIBs go?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby KyleG » 12 Nov 2017, 19:03

bobp wrote:
Where do the ships RIBs go?


Presumably the same as the Type 45 and Type 26, side doors with extendable crane arms to lower RIBs into the water.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 12 Nov 2017, 20:11

Aethulwulf wrote:
matt00773 wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:Providing escorts for the two carriers is likely to take up the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. The other two T26 will be busy protecting the CASD SSBNs.


T45 and T26 are much more capable individually than previous generation ships and utilising most of the surface fleet to just escort the carriers would be overkill in the highest sense. There's usually just one T45 that provides air defence for US carrier fleets - a role they are frequently requested to perform. Also, the less capable Horizon class and a couple of FREMMs are often seen as the only escorts for the French carrier.

Moreover, any carrier fleet of the US typically has a variety of support ships of other nations - UK, NL, Denmark, Australia etc. This would be no different for UK carrier fleets.
It has been stated that the UK carrier group will normally be formed of 2 T45s and 2 T26s, plus a Tide and a FSS. This is far from overkill.

A US CSG is normally formed of Ticonderoga-class cruiser and 3 or 4 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers (plus support ships). At times, one of these has been replaced by a ship from a partner nation such as the T45. The T45 has even been tasked with the command of the air defence of the group - but the other ships in the group are still required to provide the full air defence cover.

A French carrier battle group is normally composed of two anti-submarine frigates, one or two anti-air destroyers (Horizon or Cassard class), one light frigate in forward patrol and one supply ship. Again at times, one or two of these has been replaced by a ship from a partner nation.

For the UK, supporting two carriers (with one always at very high readiness or deployed) with escorts will require most of the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. Sometimes an escort might be provided by a partner, but the bulk of the work will fall on the RN fleet.


Do you really think we are likely to see the carrier group containing 2 x T45 and 2 x T26/ASW T23 as routine in peace time?
I get the feeling, given how thread bare we are, that we will more likely be seeing the escort group comprising 1 T45 and 2 FF (T26/ASW T23 for the most part, but occasionally even a T26/ASW T23 + T31) plus any allied escort....hope you're right...

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Zealot » 12 Nov 2017, 20:24

The French CSG consisted of 4(inc. Sub) French escorts and 2 Ally provided escorts. If the French can do it with less escorts, i'm sure we can with more.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby matt00773 » 12 Nov 2017, 21:34

Aethulwulf wrote:
matt00773 wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:Providing escorts for the two carriers is likely to take up the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. The other two T26 will be busy protecting the CASD SSBNs.


T45 and T26 are much more capable individually than previous generation ships and utilising most of the surface fleet to just escort the carriers would be overkill in the highest sense. There's usually just one T45 that provides air defence for US carrier fleets - a role they are frequently requested to perform. Also, the less capable Horizon class and a couple of FREMMs are often seen as the only escorts for the French carrier.

Moreover, any carrier fleet of the US typically has a variety of support ships of other nations - UK, NL, Denmark, Australia etc. This would be no different for UK carrier fleets.


It has been stated that the UK carrier group will normally be formed of 2 T45s and 2 T26s, plus a Tide and a FSS. This is far from overkill.


You've just contradicted your original remark on consuming most of the escort utilisation on the carriers. The list you provided is most certainly not overkill and the kind of thing I was referring to bar one T45. I doubt there will be the need for more than one T45 though it's neither here nor there.

The UK is joining of a number of battle groups including the combined UK/France force, the Joint Expeditionary Force with Nordic, Baltic and NL, and those already established with US. It will have plenty of support from these countries when embarking a carrier fleet. You might want to look up on US carrier fleets - you'll find more than the odd one or two from supporting nations.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 12 Nov 2017, 22:05

You might want to look up, for the current 6 T45s and 8 ASW T23s, on average how many are either deployed or immediately available for deployment at anyone time.

In the future, with one carrier group deployed with 2 T45s and 2 T26, the second carrier group at 20-30 days notice to deploy (with 2 T45s and 2 T26), and another T26 at very high readiness to support CASD, how many of the remaining 2 T45s and 3 T26s do you think will also be out at sea?

There is a degree of healthy scepticism that the T45 and T26 fleet will be large enough to sustain this level of activity without help from allies. The idea that they will able to take on further taskings is not realistic.

Why do you doubt the need for more than 1 T45? What threat analysis is this based on?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 12 Nov 2017, 22:43

bobp wrote:Where do the ships RIBs go?
Just "copied" the Venator 110 design. Like this... Thanks. :D
スクリーンショット 2017-11-13 7.41.08.jpg

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby shark bait » 13 Nov 2017, 07:57

Old RN wrote:In terms of escort capability for the carriers (and amphibious task group?) could we not fit a towed array (CAPSTA?) to the T45s. I am afraid my active knowledge of sonar sets stops at the Type 184 on Leanders and 2007/2026 on SSNs but given the the T45 is very large why not add a supposed "bolt-on" tail?


A towed array could be added with little work, there are options to upgrade the existing torpedo countermeasure sonars to a more capable multi function towed array.

A variable depth sonar like CAPTAS its much more difficult to retrofit, and really needs to be designed in from the start.


Aethulwulf wrote:For the UK, supporting two carriers (with one always at very high readiness or deployed) with escorts will require most of the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. Sometimes an escort might be provided by a partner, but the bulk of the work will fall on the RN fleet.


Assuming the RN can get to grips with its availability crisis, a robust escort for the carriers is fully realistic in the current plan (on the surface). The RN will have enough paltforms to sustain 2 T26 and 2 T45 in the same availability cycle as the carriers.

The issue is fulfilling other tasks, and supplying a submarine escort.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Defiance » 13 Nov 2017, 10:11

http://www.janes.com/article/75609/uk-l ... dar-system

In a press release published by the Australian Department of Defence (DoD), Pyne said the United Kingdom will undertake a capability study to integrate CEA Technologies’ CEAFAR active phased-array radar onto UK Royal Navy ships. The study of the radar system will commence in early 2018.


Interesting play. Presumably this is an olive-branch offer to support the Aus T26 bid.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby benny14 » 13 Nov 2017, 10:51

Aethulwulf wrote:In the future, with one carrier group deployed with 2 T45s and 2 T26, the second carrier group at 20-30 days notice to deploy (with 2 T45s and 2 T26), and another T26 at very high readiness to support CASD, how many of the remaining 2 T45s and 3 T26s do you think will also be out at sea?

You also need to remember that the RNs current commitments require 3-5 surface escorts, normally 2-3 frigates and 1-2 destroyers. This subtracts from what is available for the carrier group. I imagine that during peacetime carrier operations in the west, we can expect 1 frigate and possibly 1 destroyer as escort on average. This would then be beefed up for Mediterranean, Gulf and eastern deployments and would most likely involve friendly ships in support, such as how we very regularly support the US carrier group in the gulf with a type 45. If the need arised no dought, the rivers and RFA would be used to plug gaps and some deployments would be covered by allies, like during the Falklands war.

The second carrier been on a 20-30 day notice is pretty optimistic. I would imagine it would be closer to 60-90 days. Both carriers been out together would be rare, probably only for the inital photo op for the RN to say, hey look we have two carriers and then the next time during ww3.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 13 Nov 2017, 11:55

You are making the mistake of assuming future operating patterns will be similar to current and past patterns. This is wrong (according to current plans).

The carriers will change things radically.

It has been annouced that as part of the continuous carrier capability and continuous amphibious readiness that one carrier will be at very high readiness (or deployed) and the other at high readiness (20-30 days notice). Supporting these carriers will be the T45s and T26s (or ASW T23s).

All other traditional standing tasks will fall to the T31s (or gp T23s), OPVs or RFAs, or will be gapped.

Of course, much of this could change after the outcome of the current defence review...

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby matt00773 » 14 Nov 2017, 21:36

Aethulwulf wrote:You might want to look up, for the current 6 T45s and 8 ASW T23s, on average how many are either deployed or immediately available for deployment at anyone time.

In the future, with one carrier group deployed with 2 T45s and 2 T26, the second carrier group at 20-30 days notice to deploy (with 2 T45s and 2 T26), and another T26 at very high readiness to support CASD, how many of the remaining 2 T45s and 3 T26s do you think will also be out at sea?

There is a degree of healthy scepticism that the T45 and T26 fleet will be large enough to sustain this level of activity without help from allies. The idea that they will able to take on further taskings is not realistic.

Why do you doubt the need for more than 1 T45? What threat analysis is this based on?


I see you've carefully backtracked on your initial suggestion that most of the frigates and all of the destroyers will be consumed with supporting the carriers - nice one :-) There's no need to be sceptical on whether any help is needed from allies for carrier operations as this is the clear intent the the very reason for developing joint task forces - it's no different to what US is doing. The UK has the base capability with T45, T26, T31 to form the next of this group.

T45 is capable of providing air defence for an entire fleet - this is what it has been designed for. Any credible literature on T45 will provide you the analysis you need on this.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby marktigger » 14 Nov 2017, 22:24

in theory fine except what happens when the carriers need refit?
there isn't the reserve for ships to have major refits like the type 23 fleet is currently undergoing

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby seaspear » 14 Nov 2017, 22:38

The escorts and type for any carrier group will be likely determined on the risk in that theatre

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 14 Nov 2017, 22:56

seaspear wrote:The escorts and type for any carrier group will be likely determined on the risk in that theatre


Would you (or indeed anyone else with such knowledge) please suggest what the number of required escorts would be for the risk levels associated with the main theatres that the QEs are likely to be deployed to (during peacetime)?

Many thanks

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 14 Nov 2017, 23:51

matt00773 wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:You might want to look up, for the current 6 T45s and 8 ASW T23s, on average how many are either deployed or immediately available for deployment at anyone time.

In the future, with one carrier group deployed with 2 T45s and 2 T26, the second carrier group at 20-30 days notice to deploy (with 2 T45s and 2 T26), and another T26 at very high readiness to support CASD, how many of the remaining 2 T45s and 3 T26s do you think will also be out at sea?

There is a degree of healthy scepticism that the T45 and T26 fleet will be large enough to sustain this level of activity without help from allies. The idea that they will able to take on further taskings is not realistic.

Why do you doubt the need for more than 1 T45? What threat analysis is this based on?


I see you've carefully backtracked on your initial suggestion that most of the frigates and all of the destroyers will be consumed with supporting the carriers - nice one :-) There's no need to be sceptical on whether any help is needed from allies for carrier operations as this is the clear intent the the very reason for developing joint task forces - it's no different to what US is doing. The UK has the base capability with T45, T26, T31 to form the next of this group.

T45 is capable of providing air defence for an entire fleet - this is what it has been designed for. Any credible literature on T45 will provide you the analysis you need on this.
I have not backtracked one bit. I have tried to explain so that you would understand. One last time...

...the standard planned UK escort group for a carrier will be 2 T45s and 2 T26s (plus a SSN and RFA). To provide such an escort for the 2 carriers will use up most of the available sea time of 6 T45s and 6 T26s. The other 2 T26s will be busy with protecting the CASD. In fact, many people think it will use all sea time and then some, so that help will also be needed from others on top of taking the available sea time of 6 T45s and 6 T26s.

In any 6 year period (72 months), each carrier is expected to spend a total of 18 months deployed and 18 months at very high readiness to deploy. For the other 36 months, it will still be at high readiness (20-30 days notice) while it undertakes training, undergoes maintenance alongside and is in drydock for short periods.

Each carrier will need its escorts available in the same readiness state (i.e. deployed, very high or high) at all times.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 15 Nov 2017, 04:24

Aethulwulf wrote:...the standard planned UK escort group for a carrier will be 2 T45s and 2 T26s (plus a SSN and RFA). To provide such an escort for the 2 carriers will use up most of the available sea time of 6 T45s and 6 T26s. The other 2 T26s will be busy with protecting the CASD. In fact, many people think it will use all sea time and then some, so that help will also be needed from others on top of taking the available sea time of 6 T45s and 6 T26s.

In any 6 year period (72 months), each carrier is expected to spend a total of 18 months deployed and 18 months at very high readiness to deploy. For the other 36 months, it will still be at high readiness (20-30 days notice) while it undertakes training, undergoes maintenance alongside and is in drydock for short periods.
Sorry from aside. I think you assessment is good in general.

One question. As you said (and as I understand), 2 T45 and 2 T26 will be attached to each CVF by default (but not always). Then, what you need is only 4+4, because CVs need maintenance and basic training as much as escorts do. With 2 T26 used for CASD support, there will be 2 T45 and 2 T26 "left" for other tasks?

I think this "4 escorts" will provide "1 deployed", and "1 in high-readiness, 2 in low-readiness / maintenance". In reality, the "1 deployed" will be an "operational margin", to handle unexpected machinery failure, HADR, 2nd-FRE (1st will be T31e), or even lack of man-power.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 15 Nov 2017, 15:40

Iv just seen on a uk defence journal articles that the T31 contract is £2bn is this true as I thought it was less ?

If it is and we take 2 x unit cost for design we could get 6 not 5 out of the budget or up the per unit cost closer to £300m


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