Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Caribbean]

It's just about possible, but given the timeframe it really would have been a few even with the best of foresight.

Agreed - my original thought was that the T21 with a CIWS, rather than Sea Cat, would have been a very different story, not specifically that we should have had them in 82 (I thought that it was still a US-only system at the time). However, since they were actually available (and we managed to get our hands on a few sets immediately afterwards), I suspect that even two or three sets in the right places would have severely restricted the Skyhawk's low-level attacks.

[Ron5]

It's just about possible, but given the timeframe it really would have been a few even with the best of foresight.

Agreed - my original thought was that the T21 with a CIWS, rather than Sea Cat, would have been a very different story, not specifically that we should have had them in 82 (I thought that it was still a US-only system at the time). However, since they were actually available (and we managed to get our hands on a few sets immediately afterwards), I suspect that even two or three sets in the right places would have severely restricted the Skyhawk's low-level attacks.

Neither the Type 21's or the Type 42's had the top weight margins to allow Phalanx to be fitted.

[S M H]

Neither the Type 21's or the Type 42's had the top weight margins to allow Phalanx to be fitted.

The type 21 were originally down for disposal under the Knot defence review. So much that Arrows crew put a for sale notice in the bridge window. Pakistan fitted one on the hanger in replacement of Sea cat The Type 42s lost the two sea boats. Removed to allow 2 barrel 30 mm guns initially. Replaced with phalanx. on subsequent D.&I.D. and refits. The U.S.N. even allowed there ordered sets to be diverted for the carriers replaced with U.K. ordered replacements. That how they were procured and fitted so quickly.

[Caribbean]

Neither the Type 21's or the Type 42's had the top weight margins to allow Phalanx to be fitted.

What was the relative weight of the Sea Cat launcher and associated fire control radars vs the Phalanx? I also thought that the 42s got them? Though possibly that was the later batches

[Ron5]

What Pakistan will stick on a ship is not the same as what the RN would.

And as I said, the Type 42's didn't have margin enough. Phalanx were only fitted after the sea boats were removed to free up top weight. The Type 42 design was one of the worst RN post war designs in many ways.

[Lord Jim]

Yep and that it why it is vital the T-31s are big enough to give the RN option later in their service life. If they do another T-21 and build it just big enough it will be a huge mistake and hurt both the RN and possible exports.

[Caribbean]

What Pakistan will stick on a ship is not the same as what the RN would.

Looks remarkably similar

Tariq-class destroyers (ex-RN Type 21 frigate)
1 × Vickers 4.5 in (114 mm)/55 Mk.8 AS/AA gun (25rds/min to 22km/11.9nmi)
1 × Vulcan 20 mm Phalanx CIWS (3000rds/min to 1.5km)
Harpoon SSMs
LY-60 SAMs
Wire-guided Bofors Type 43 torpedoes
Mark 46 torpedoes
TKWA/MASS (Multi Ammunition Softkill System)
1 × Lynx HAS.3 helicopter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_21_f ... _c1982.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq-cla ... F-150).jpg

[marktigger]

interesting in the debate on Phalanx no one (till now) has pointed out that Type 23 has never been fitted for or with it?

with the CAMM upgrade and the removal of the seawolf radars do they nowhave the top weight margins?

[james k]

Most of which we did have just a decade or so earlier!

Like allot of things we "Should Have" had in 82

Like ships:-
with double fire mains
No PVC cables
No Polyester uniform
More fire fighting equipment
Proper aircraft carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers, maybe Hawkeye AEW
LHD capable of carrying chinooks and operating harrier
Type 22 with 4.5 inch guns

[Ron5]

interesting in the debate on Phalanx no one (till now) has pointed out that Type 23 has never been fitted for or with it?

with the CAMM upgrade and the removal of the seawolf radars do they nowhave the top weight margins?

Good question. Gotta buy some more Phalanx for the T26 anyway so why not shopping start early and fit one on the T23 hangar roof.

[abc123]

interesting in the debate on Phalanx no one (till now) has pointed out that Type 23 has never been fitted for or with it?

with the CAMM upgrade and the removal of the seawolf radars do they nowhave the top weight margins?

Good question. Gotta buy some more Phalanx for the T26 anyway so why not shopping start early and fit one on the T23 hangar roof.

Because there's no money?

[Ron5]

interesting in the debate on Phalanx no one (till now) has pointed out that Type 23 has never been fitted for or with it?

with the CAMM upgrade and the removal of the seawolf radars do they nowhave the top weight margins?

Good question. Gotta buy some more Phalanx for the T26 anyway so why not shopping start early and fit one on the T23 hangar roof.

Because there's no money?

Gonna spend it anyway.

[Opinion3]

but what is the point of having a warship if it can't defend itself?

I suppose we could revert back to the Falklands War to answer this question. Certainly something to protect Atlantic Conveyor would have useful, or more relevantly not using it for such crucial kit

[benny14]

Having just read the request for information document linked in the Type 31 frigate news thread I am now even more depressed than before about these ships future prospects. The Type 31 will be even less capable than a Khareef-class corvette, with the glorified title of light-frigate.

No anti ship missiles, highly likely CIWIS only or CAMM only. Short service life of 15 years. They are purely for constabulary duties, completely unable to fight against peer enemies or even add anything beneficial to a task group. They have asked for evolution paths towards making the ship able to carry out entry level ASW, consort defence and ASUW. Also interesting how they list the US coastguard before our own agencies.

It will be essentially an up armed river class patrol vessel capable of deploying independently. Yes it frees up the higher end assets, but cuts their number by 5, and with 8 type 26s, the active, training, refit scedule will mean even less vessels will be available than they currently are, and if a situation arises they will be unable to be backed up by the type 31.

Our escort fleet has officially been cut to 14. Gotta love our growing navy of far less capable ships.

[S M H]

The navy should replace ensign with a new one based on the present devoid of the red cross and union jack. Because with 14 escorts and a glorified under armed patrol boats. Any conflict would be impossible to carry out without massive losses. The navy has been sacrificed by Osborne poisoned chalice of putting the strategic deterrent in the core defence budget. Then adding anything he could get away with to make up the mythical 2% . While the treasury retaining the funds. Mr Knots managed decline completed. Why Dennis Healy who wheeled the defence axe fought Harrold Wilson tooth and nail to keep it a separate from the core budget. There again the then politicians had Knowledge of our armed forces. Not like our present political masters whom only know there Westminster bubble

[abc123]

interesting in the debate on Phalanx no one (till now) has pointed out that Type 23 has never been fitted for or with it?

with the CAMM upgrade and the removal of the seawolf radars do they nowhave the top weight margins?

Good question. Gotta buy some more Phalanx for the T26 anyway so why not shopping start early and fit one on the T23 hangar roof.

Because there's no money?

Gonna spend it anyway.

Ahaa, you mean to put them first on Type 23 and later on Type 26?

[Opinion3]

If they are glorified patrol boats what sort of peer are they meant to go up against. There must be a document out there answering this question.......

[RetroSicotte]

If they are glorified patrol boats what sort of peer are they meant to go up against. There must be a document out there answering this question.......

The "peer" they're aimed at is whichever interviewer Fallon has to say something to.

[Ron5]

Brighton pier, Liverpool pier, Southend pier, ...

[benny14]

Yup. These vessels wont even be able to take up the home job of fleet ready escort.

[RAF>FAN]

It will be essentially an up armed river class patrol vessel capable of deploying independently.

I said that 2 years ago and got laughed at!

[marktigger]

If they are glorified patrol boats what sort of peer are they meant to go up against. There must be a document out there answering this question.......

That's part of the problem identifying a clear and real threat that is acceptable to the foreign office and the treasury

[marktigger]

In this discussion I have seen Much talk of the french patrol frigates and the Australian/New Zealand ANZAC class. But in other sources I have read the Canadiian Halifax class described as a "Patrol Frigate" But little or no discussion about them in this debate. Yes they are currently in Miid life update and getting CAMM and has the much vaunted 57mm bofors gun (which I wonder will it go on its replacement) but also has Phalanx.

[marktigger]

there has been lots of talk about survivability could a T23 or a T45 survive an exocet impact like Sheffield or Glamorgan or the USS Stark took? could a T22/III?

[Lord Jim]

A T-23 hit by a ASM such as Exocet or Harpoon is at least going to be a mission kill if not worse. This is one reason why I believe the RN is concentrating on defending the T-31 rather than giving it more offensive punch. The ANZAC could be compared to the T-21, more modern I grant you, with the capabilities it initially entered service with. However the design allowed it to go through a pretty major upgrade greatly increasing its effectiveness. Again this is something that the RN should bear in mind when selecting which platform it wants for the T-31. Though called a "Patrol" Frigate, this appears to be what the Canadians call their GP hulls, but saying that the Halifax is broadly the equivalent of the T-23 ASW.