Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Repulse]

I think thats to simplistic a view.

Why?

[marktigger]

I think thats to simplistic a view.

Why?

because winning the battle of the atlantic took an awful lot more than some very simple escorts. The crucial elements were the the convoy system. ELINT war, Air power and having capable escorts who could take the fight to the U-boats like the Black Swan class who provided a large number of the Hunter killer groups.

the Flowers actually put some convoys at risk because they couldn't keep up with the merchant ships they were escorting. My grand father helped build them and also was on convoys escorted by them and didn't have a good word to say about them. He did mention watching one break up mid atlantic with heavy loss of crew.

[donald_of_tokyo]

From T31e thread.

Similarly, T31e can fight against missile boats and fast-seaboats.

Correction: the embarked Wildcat with LMM and Sea Venom can. The ship can fire her guns, but results of anti-swarm exercises tend to not be encouraging if it comes to that.

I am not sure, if T26 or T45 is in any sense better than T31e against swarm fast boat attacks. 57mm rapid 3P gun vs 127mm gun, which is better? I think 57mm. 2x 30mm gun = the same, T26 has another 2 CIWS, it is good. All other 7.62mm gatlings and other guns are the same. Wildcat can also do something, but this is also the same between T26 and T31e. CAMM is NOT yet designed for anti-surface. When it does, yes 48 CAMM onboard T26 is better than 12-24 CAMM on T31e. But, how about T45?

They are actually roles that, in a way or another, right now end up covered with River B1 (see escorting russian ships in the Channel) and Bay (standing guard in Hurricane Season).

It is your idea, good. But it is not the same to mine. Also RN do not say so. "Many part of" FRE can be covered with River B1, yes. With T31e, "most part" will be doable, because I believe FRE's task includes rushing for Siera Leone like event, when needed. The ASW cannot be done with both River and T31e, I agree. It is a matter of how much important they = RN thinks about "Siera Leone like event". For WIGS, just send T31e with mission bay, and re-use Bays in other tasks. Say, make it a "fleet ready RFA", prepared for HADR AND emerging amphibious operations.

I agree T31e is not required to cover all the tasks T23GPs are doing now. RFI clearly states so. But, I do not agree those tasks can ALL be covered with River B2 and Bay/Points. So, to replace the 5 T23GPs, there will be 2+1 options as I say:
- Op-1 = to buy 5 T31e as to do all T23GP tasks other than 2ndary-ASW (anyway T23GP is NOT doing 1st-rate-ASW) and other than 2ndary-TF escorting in hi-threat environments.
- Op-2 = buy another T26 and 2 up-armed River B2 (=B3) to partly cover T23GP's tasks between these assets, and increase 1-2 hull of MHC for HADR.
- Op-3 = (your proposal is, as I guess), to get more Bay/Points. I agree this is worth thinking, because it will cover yet-another tasks "sometimes" covered with T23GP. My point is, this is SURELY NOT THE ONLY option, and RN is NOT looking for it now. That's all I want to say.

[Repulse]

because winning the battle of the atlantic took an awful lot more than some very simple escorts. The crucial elements were the the convoy system. ELINT war, Air power and having capable escorts who could take the fight to the U-boats like the Black Swan class who provided a large number of the Hunter killer groups.

Again not arguing but the point remains that without the Flowers it is likely the battle would have been lost. The Black Swan is a good example though as this was an improved example of a non cruiser doing an essential job.

[Gabriele]

I am not sure, if T26 or T45 is in any sense better than T31e against swarm fast boat attacks. 57mm rapid 3P gun vs 127mm gun, which is better? I think 57mm. 2x 30mm gun = the same, T26 has another 2 CIWS, it is good. All other 7.62mm gatlings and other guns are the same. Wildcat can also do something, but this is also the same between T26 and T31e. CAMM is NOT yet designed for anti-surface. When it does, yes 48 CAMM onboard T26 is better than 12-24 CAMM on T31e. But, how about T45?

I did not say the other escorts are particularly better at trying to wrestle a swarm of FACs getting too close. Exercises have shown that you do not want to be there, period. Wildcat with LMM and Sea Venom and M3M can do far more than "something". It is the one solution the Navy has to that kind of problem, and is meant to pluck FACs out of the water while they are still a good distance away. Sea Ceptor surface engagement is the other, if and when it gets demonstrated. The US have gone their own way with VL Hellfire for that.

Getting the 57mm onboard the Type 31 (if it ever happens) will not make it a FAC chaser. The reviews coming from the US of that very weapon are far from spectacular to begin with. Being a relatively slow vessel is not going to help in any way either.

For WIGS, just send T31e with mission bay, and re-use Bays in other tasks.

Weren't you writing about mission bay being not even needed until two posts ago?
Type 31 requirements possibly include a jolly big crane, too, if i'm reading this right:

shore craneage (~10 Te, ~14m reach, ~30m lifting height)

which is missing from all concepts seen so far. I wouldn't be surprised to see Arrowhead losing the "box" mission bay amidship in favor of an open space like on Italy's PPA.



Still, a frigate is limited in what it carries and how it can bring it ashore. Particularly if it only embarks a Wildcat, which is no big lifter. The government put a Bay out there for a reason, and even with all what it could put ashore via mexeflote it still took heat for not doing enough. There is no way they are going to pretend that 21 pallets on a Type 31 are meaningful. They are not, and in the end the Bay will still have to be there.

[donald_of_tokyo]

For WIGS, just send T31e with mission bay, and re-use Bays in other tasks.

Weren't you writing about mission bay being not even needed until two posts ago?
Type 31 requirements possibly include a jolly big crane, too, if i'm reading this right:

Yes I said so. As I'm stating elsewhere, my "favorite choice" is Op-2, with 1 T26 and 2-3 River B3 (without mission bay) and 1-2 MHC (as a dedicated mission deck). But, I did not say it shall be the only answer, as I listed 3 options up there. I am NOT saying any idea is the ONLY reasonable choice. I am saying there are many choices, which worth considering.

Still, a frigate is limited in what it carries and how it can bring it ashore. Particularly if it only embarks a Wildcat, which is no big lifter. The government put a Bay out there for a reason, and even with all what it could put ashore via mexeflote it still took heat for not doing enough. There is no way they are going to pretend that 21 pallets on a Type 31 are meaningful. They are not, and in the end the Bay will still have to be there.

No objection. But, it does not mean T31e with mission bay (or a River B3 accompanied with MHC) is NOT needed. For small disasters, even a River B2 is "good". For some, T31e will be enough. Even if you have all 4 LPDs and CVF, it will not be enough in such as case as Japanese Tsunami on 2011. Surely, it is not 1 or 0.

[Aethulwulf]

Clearly something like a Bay is always going to be able to provide way more HADR than any frigate.
However, ships like frigates can still play a vital role. In many exercises I have played in critical factors are communications, command and control, and generating a good picture of ground truth. Frigates have the resources to do this very well.
Without these key factors, the practical side of HADR can be chaos. A frigate can be on seen quickly and provide limited first aid but, most importantly, assess the situation and direct the need and deployment of further resources.

[marktigger]

it also has C3 facilities, a helecopter even wildcat can do visual recce, it has manpower including a large number of technical people who are used to working with engines, electrics, water supply. It has people who are trained in first aid and fire fighting. its galley can provide hot food. Its engineers can improvise or repair in their workshop. It can also provide security detachments. so the larger vessel and crew is much more flexible than an OPV in situations like this.

[Lord Jim]

The Bays have a very bright future and will probably outlast the Albions by quite a margin. I think we can all agree that the current plans for a T-26/T-31e mix are not what the UK needs but it is what we can afford. To say that they are a waste of funding misses the point, it became a case of the T-31 of nothing with the money going elsewhere. Would we be better off with just 14 escorts in total?

In its planned roles having a wildcat on board enables the vessels to carry a pretty big stick and if the flight deck can handle a Merlin sized platform, that also opens up more options as a stepping stone for operations.

Yes the USN is not happy with the 57mm but the RCN and many other are the opposite. As pointed out the T-31e as planned may have problems with swarm attacks but the 57mm is far better than the 5" at dealing with such attacks and has far better range than Phalanx or 30mm auto cannon. Having one of these forward and then a Sea Ram or couple of Starstreak/LMM launchers would provide an adequate self defence capability to which would be added to now ubiquitous 7.62 Mini guns or even M2 12.7mm.

Having such a basic design that has room to grow should be seen as an opportunity for the RN. Like the Army with he MIV, it will take them a while to work out how to get the best out of them and also what can affordably be done in future refits to maximise their utilisation. IF the RN had not gone for the gold plated solution for the T-26 it might have ended up with a single class of 13 vessels to replace the T-23 but it didn't and we are where we are.

[marktigger]

the 57mm isn't the panacea allot portray it as same with the 76mm the 127mm allows you to reach out further and i'd say goalkeeper's 30mm would be more effective than DS30 or Phalanx.
Certainly adding the .5 browning to the deck armament could be useful.

[Spinflight]

Is the term frigate a bit like an irregular verb?

My country builds multi purpose patrol frigates with very light armament that are flexible, affordable and can be upgraded as need be.

Your light frigate program is a waste of money because it doesn't carry enough missiles.

They use a cross channel ferry which is far superior to any frigate.

Lol.

[Gabriele]

But, it does not mean T31e with mission bay (or a River B3 accompanied with MHC) is NOT needed.

Again: for achieving what practical, measurable result?

[marktigger]

the term Frigate is a very flexible term the t31 as currently described is more a corvette or sloop

[Ron5]

Future Escorts:

The T45 is a good ship design but the numbers were significantly cut with a promise of more T26s. Issues on reliability and capability need to be resolved quickly. Specifically power plants and network capability / BMD. What do we need them for? Area defense, so it we take a Falklands type scenario

1) protect the Carrier group two T45s (if there are two groups that would be four)
2) to act as a Gatekeeper one T45 (this really depends on how many different directions the threat might need early warning and threat elimination from)
3) protect a designated area two T45s (one in reserve) e.g. San Carlos Bay
4) Standing tasks, other areas of threat
5) In port
6) In refit

Frankly I don't think we have enough T45s, although I don't doubt the capability is up there. I dislike the lack of anti-submarine, anti-ship and the single helicopter capability (including needing two helicopters to deal with the threats).

In summary, we have issues and lack numbers. The use of a T45 in a high threat environment really requires other assets (T26s) to be safe.

The T26 I think we all like. The numbers are being cut and those in charge should be ashamed. The time and money spent on trying to get a new "LOW RISK" frigate design off the drawing board and into production is ridiculous. Mistakes made include

1. Allowing military ship design capabilities (and I include submarines here) to decline and go around in circles like a remote controlled boat on Southsea canoeing lake. The T45 was "high technology / high risk" and we had a learning experience. To leave it, what twenty odd years?, before starting again is plain daft. The experience will have retired and the design, build and costs will suffer as a result.

2. Taking a low risk approach, might make sense. But there are already doubts surfacing on the wisdom of life extending our escorts and the number of refits. So are we getting this strategy right?

3. The TOBA was a good idea, it needed to go hand in hand with a ship-building strategy and a 30 year drum beat. There was a strategy, it was for there to be a single warship champion. This didn't work out, although main as a result of 1) Government inconsistencies and 2) Government devolution. Should the yards have been owned by the MOD and leased like Rail franchises? Do we need competition? Was the QE build a disaster?

4. Requirements for the defence of the UK and it's overseas territories, commitments etc. should be stated and defined up front. Yes, Russia became a less capable opponent, but it also arguably has become a higher risk one. The idea that OPVs can replace some tasks the RN carries out is acceptable. But the RN is really there for high end tasks and crews and assets are used for lower end purposes because they need training and frankly something to do.

5. OPVs, and removing the need to send "expensive warships" to carry out drug interdiction is a red herring. In my calculation of threats the number of means of dealing with them is falling because OPVs are not up to it. Money has been wasted, not saved.

6. The T26 should be built in numbers at a drum beat of one a year. It can be block built. Competition is possible Bae Clyde or Babcock Rosyth.

The T31e is useful in that it gets a competition going in new ways of thinking. However rather like the US littoral solutions the results don't look great.

1. Why does a dinky patrol boat represent a better disaster relief platform than a Bay Class or equivalent? This capability would be better provided by the Bays and MARS SSS. I felt embarrassed looking at the Dutch effort with a sensibly sized helicopter and comparing this to the Wildcat. As many have already pointed out the use of off-board capabilities is widespread now, so maybe this is a better use of funds.

2. Would the T31e escort the Russian's through the Channel? Will it deter them from sniffing out our submarines? What is it going to do in the Gulf? and have you looked at the latest warships Japan, China, Korea, Malaysia etc have............ because it is going to feel like turning up at a supercar show in a Golf GTi.

3. I still maintain that the T31e is a complete waste of money, from an industrial point of view it may he helpful. From defence view point a utter waste.

Correct me if I am wrong but the RN in WWII wasn't up against an amazing adversary in Germany. It largely confined the Germans to port and just had to contend with U-boats. When it met the Japanese it don't do well. We had a big Navy, we had a good Navy but we had the wrong Navy. Lets not kid ourselves that because the Government has a budget that having the wrong Navy is right.

Thank you for a well thought out and thought provoking comment.

[Ron5]

One thing for me is clear, the days of single role AAW and ASW ships is now gone. The replacement for the T45s should be multi-role.

The USN with the Arleigh Burkes agree with you. Trouble is one of the roles will have to take a back seat and for the USN, it was ASW.

Maybe a Type 26 batch 2 with a better radar and Mk 41s full of Standard/Big Asters might help. It's no Type 45 successor but would increase fleet AAW.

[Ron5]

The primary RN defence against swarm boat attacks will be the Wildcat. Each Wildcat will be able to carry 20 LMM missiles (I forget the RN name, Martlet perhaps). The Widcat's excellent AESA radar will see them in plenty of time for the EO turret to paint each one in turn with a laser on which the missile will home.

Last ditch defence will be the Phalanx.

The RN has this covered. Always had the right idea about this kind of thing as demonstrated in the Iraq wars.

[marktigger]

Future Escorts:



. OPVs, and removing the need to send "expensive warships" to carry out drug interdiction is a red herring. In my calculation of threats the number of means of dealing with them is falling because OPVs are not up to it. Money has been wasted, not saved.


. Why does a dinky patrol boat represent a better disaster relief platform than a Bay Class or equivalent? This capability would be better provided by the Bays and MARS SSS. I felt embarrassed looking at the Dutch effort with a sensibly sized helicopter and comparing this to the Wildcat. As many have already pointed out the use of off-board capabilities is widespread now, so maybe this is a better use of funds.

2. Would the T31e escort the Russian's through the Channel? Will it deter them from sniffing out our submarines? What is it going to do in the Gulf? and have you looked at the latest warships Japan, China, Korea, Malaysia etc have............ because it is going to feel like turning up at a supercar show in a Golf GTi.

3. I still maintain that the T31e is a complete waste of money, from an industrial point of view it may he helpful. From defence view point a utter waste.

Correct me if I am wrong but the RN in WWII wasn't up against an amazing adversary in Germany. It largely confined the Germans to port and just had to contend with U-boats. When it met the Japanese it don't do well. We had a big Navy, we had a good Navy but we had the wrong Navy. Lets not kid ourselves that because the Government has a budget that having the wrong Navy is right.

agree with the above points
OPV On WIGS role is nothing more than saving money it doesn't have the capability needed to do drug interdiction in terms of sensors, sprint speed, helicopter. It certainly doesn't have the capability to provide HADR as current events demonstrate. Its not impressive for defence diplomacy and would be interesting to see one responding to another aid to civil power operation or protecting soverginty of a dependency or former colony. so lets stop fooling ourselves they aren't up to the job. And a Pimped OPV in terms of type 31 will only be marginally better so a waste of money as currently planned.
Yes a Bay or MARS SSS is a better option in the HADR role as would Argus but do we have the capability to have one there every hurricaine season? Lets not forget wave knight is also in the region.
wildcat is a waste of space in HADR except doing visual recce NH90 or Merlin would be much more useful

as to the pre WWII navy yeap it had some superb elements but the FAA were years behind because of the RAF who were still interfering. It was short of escorts in terms of destroyers and sloops. It had limited airdefence capability. And there was much promise of Jam tomorrow right up to sept 3 1939. Sounds like we haven't learnt our lessons from history as we are repeating them again!

[marktigger]

The primary RN defence against swarm boat attacks will be the Wildcat. Each Wildcat will be able to carry 20 LMM missiles (I forget the RN name, Martlet perhaps). The Widcat's excellent AESA radar will see them in plenty of time for the EO turret to paint each one in turn with a laser on which the missile will home.

Last ditch defence will be the Phalanx.

The RN has this covered. Always had the right idea about this kind of thing as demonstrated in the Iraq wars.

all good if you have advanced warning, or the widcat doesn't go tech or one of its systems doesn't go tech. there needs like airdefence to be a layered response

[Ron5]

I think there has a bit too much jumping to conclusions about various issues, when it is still another 12 months (ish) before the design of the T31e will be known.

No requirement for CAMM
The requirements state

360 degree military surface and air surveillance radar with proven integration to anti-air missile system if fitted.

and

Point Defence Missile System (PDMS) + Sensors or Close in Weapon System + FTR PDMS to survive attacks as expected in constabulary operations.

Firstly, FTR (fit to receive) does not mean will not be fitted. It means will be fitted, when operationally required. What this means is the RN wants the bidders to do a careful assessment of the costs and benefits of either fitting a PDMS to all five ships, or have fewer systems which are swapped around ships prior to their deployment to higher threat areas. CAMM is not specified to be the PDMS as the RN wants to see the bidders do some work to again justify their choice. Realistic options are CAMM, ESSM and SeaRAM. I think the choice is obvious, but the RN wants to leave the door open to alternatives. However, given there is already training and maintenance lines for Artisan and CAMM, anything other than these will incure quite a lot of extra cost to the £250m budget.

No requirement for Hull Mounted Sonar
The requirements state

FTR hull mounted sonar

Again, FTR (fit to receive) does not mean will not be fitted. It means will be fitted, when operationally required. So this implies there will be fewer systems than ships, which are swapped around ships prior to their deployment to higher threat areas. Given the likely size of the T31, the HMS is unlikely to be within a bulbous bow but a retractable system fitted elsewhere on hull.

MHC Capability
There is a desire to allow some mine countermeasure activities to be undertaken from Frigates. The mission bay in the T26 allows for this and, ideally, so should the T31. But this does not mean that the T31 (or T26) will become the future MHC vessel.

Yes, we may be jumping to conclusions but so are you. And I think you are using a definition for FTR that is not meant in the document e.g. the FTR PDMS. How can a PDMS like CAMM be fitted or not based on deployment?

I personally think that it's crystal clear that the MoD mean that the baseline capabilities/features must be included in the 250m cost. Options can be if they don't break thru the cost ceiling.

So a nice radar is a must have. Missile system not so much.

I can't believe you are serious that the MoD expect the designer to go look at ESSM or whatever. They won't. The RN regard SeaRam as not a PDMS, it's a CIWS, so it would be a candidate for the "CIWS plus FTR PDMS" option.

Sonar is not a must have, either for permanent or deployment fitting.

Your comment on MHC, on the other hand, is 100% spot on.

[Ron5]

The primary RN defence against swarm boat attacks will be the Wildcat. Each Wildcat will be able to carry 20 LMM missiles (I forget the RN name, Martlet perhaps). The Widcat's excellent AESA radar will see them in plenty of time for the EO turret to paint each one in turn with a laser on which the missile will home.

Last ditch defence will be the Phalanx.

The RN has this covered. Always had the right idea about this kind of thing as demonstrated in the Iraq wars.

all good if you have advanced warning, or the widcat doesn't go tech or one of its systems doesn't go tech. there needs like airdefence to be a layered response

1. Your own Wildcat
2. Your consorts Wildcat
3. Phalanx
4. MG's

[indeid]

The primary RN defence against swarm boat attacks will be the Wildcat. Each Wildcat will be able to carry 20 LMM missiles (I forget the RN name, Martlet perhaps). The Widcat's excellent AESA radar will see them in plenty of time for the EO turret to paint each one in turn with a laser on which the missile will home.

Last ditch defence will be the Phalanx.

The RN has this covered. Always had the right idea about this kind of thing as demonstrated in the Iraq wars.

I know it is the book answer, but I think that relying on a helicopter in this scenario is a risk. Issues such as duty cycles and mechanical faults has been mentioned, but a sprinkling of MANPADS on the swarm ships would quickly mitigate the presence of a Wildcat and force it on the defensive.

It is a challenging threat, especially in restricted waterspace and if it is mixed with threats from other directions/environments.

[ArmChairCivvy]

a Type 26 batch 2 with a better radar and Mk 41s full of Standard/Big Asters might help.

... getting there

EO turret [to] paint each one in turn with a laser on which the missile will home.

Don't forget to load a few Sea Venoms that can be used in a fire&forget mode... starting with the job earlier; a better chance to finish in time - before they get to launch theirs

[ArmChairCivvy]

MANPADS on the swarm ships would quickly mitigate the presence of a Wildcat and force it on the defensive.

With Martlets yes; with Sea Venoms no

So a nice radar is a must have.

Not just a nice one, but of proven integration (CAMM can be assumed). So, other than RN's own, what are NZ and Brazil planning to use with their CAMM purchases (if anyone happens to know)?

[indeid]

MANPADS on the swarm ships would quickly mitigate the presence of a Wildcat and force it on the defensive.

With Martlets yes; with Sea Venoms no

How many can it carry? Thats the main advantage of a swarm attack, numbers take the advantage away from the high tech but low number systems.

[Gabriele]

2 Sea Venom and 10 Martlets or up to 20 Martlets. The latter comes in packs of 5.